Rudder/motor Contention

mcrandall · Post by **mcrandall** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:20 pm

Keeping in mind my lack of ever sailing, I'm confused as to the location of the rudder in the "up" position and where the lower end of the OB is located. Obviously, one is in tghe way of the other and I assume requires the rudder to be lowered to clear the moter shaft. Is this true?

Do you run into trouble while motoring through shallows/beaching? Seems plain to me, or am I missing something?

Thanks!

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:00 am

On my C-22 when my 9.9 hp Johnson is down, the rudder must be down too or the prop will eat my rudder. So My rudder gets locked down before I ever start up the motor.

Thanks
Alan

gregcrawford · Post by **gregcrawford** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:44 am

On my C22 with a 9.9 four stroke Honda, my rudder clears the motor foot by 1 inch when the motor bracket is all the way down. One thing you have to be careful about is reversing with the rudder all the way up. If you get too far one way or another with the rudder, the force of the engine thrust will slap the tiller around very quickly due to the increased leverage. It can cause damage or really smart. Ask me how I know.

skyking · Post by **skyking** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:29 am

Mark,

As I look at your pictures..I notice that your motor is on the center line. You could always off set the motor bracket to one side which would take care of your problem.

Wow...thats quite a contraption that you built to lift the boat...

John K · Post by **John K** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:43 am

Someone here (don't remember who) drilled the rudder cheeks and installed a pin that restricts the rudder from swinging back all the way to alleviate interference with the outboard. He said the rudder still came up high enough that it was the same depth as the fully retracted keel, so no loss there. I'm thinking of doing the same.

tgentry · Post by **tgentry** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:18 am

I found that I could set up my motor tilt so that in the shallow water position it just clears the fully up rudder.

With my new power tilt motor it's a little trickier since there is no positive stop for shallow water, but it can still be done.

mcrandall · Post by **mcrandall** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:59 am

Thanks for the ideas guys! Greg-That's some particularly good advice, sorry for your pain! Not sure I won't repeat the same before the knowledge is fully set.

John- I'll check into the restrictor pin idea, might be the easiest solution!

Thanks to all!

Jmckamey · Post by **Jmckamey** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:13 am

I drilled and relocated the upstop bolt on my C20 to advoid chopping the rudder with the prop. I used a SS bolt and a peice of rubber tube to soften the stop. Worked good. True, the new rudder up position was no lower than the keel when retracted. Have to be a bit carefull on the ramp though.

John K · Post by **John K** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:40 am

There's my guy. Excellent! Do you plan to do the same on the 22?

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:35 pm

mcrandall,

I was just looking at one of your photo's with you motor attached and down on the back of your boat. It looks to me like your motor is mounted lower then my motor. The actual mount that is on your transom looks lower mounted then mine does.

I seem to have only one very old photo of the motor on my transom out of the water and the mounting bracket is in the up position but I think you can extrapolate from this photo just how low in the water my motor. I estimate from the photo my motor lowered would be about 8" to 12" lower. As if memory is correct the bottom of the water line painted on the boat is where the water hits my hull and my motor, the added section above the foot, about half way up that added section is where the water line hits the motor.

(Double click to enlarge photo)

Now my rudder comes to within about 2 inches of the aft bottom of my boat. So I figure that my motor location as far as depth in the water when I'm running it is about right. Not too deep not too shallow. My rudder would definitely hit the prop if I let it float up to it's upper limit. I would estimate I would cut into my rudder about 2 to 3 inches if I let it go. This is going from memory of my rudder floating all the way retracted, parallel to the deck, floating beside my prop with the motor off.

As for beaching under motor power, I've never done it. If I were to do a sandy beaching, nose first I would retract the Keel all the way up. This would also have to be a fairly steep sandy beach, not a real flat one going out a long way into the water. I would want at least 2 to 3 feet of water under my prop when beached. Then I would raise the rudder visually to about 75% from strait down. Then I would turn the motor off and swing my rudder back and forth under the prop to see that I had at least 2" to 3" of clearance. Then I would restart the motor and head for the shore only then.

Oh yea, we have tides here that go up and down 12 feet. So I would not stay on this beach for more then a few minutes. I could be high and dry in 30 min to a couple of hours at high tide. At low tide I would have to swim for my boat even if I had tided it off with the anchor or a line tide to a tree say on shore. You see I have contemplated beaching. I know I can do it, I just never have and then it would just be a touch and go to load or unload quickly.

Thanks
Alan

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:15 pm

Nope scratch most of what I said in the last post.

I was quite foggy on my memory. So I went out to the garage, pulled out my motor and set it on the transom motor mount and took photos.

As you can clearly see my rudder is not long enough to hit the prop. however it does hit the motor and much higher then I expected. I tide the rubber up as high as it could go to compare motor, rudder and bottom of the boat which is clear in these photos. Looks like my rudder would need to be lowered a good 10 to 12 inches to clear the bottom of the motor when it is in the locked down position.

(Double Click to enlarge photos)

So it's not as bad as I said about hitting the prop. However the rudder comes up higher and the motor is in the way 8" to 10" of the rudder swinging freely when pulled all the way up.

Thanks
Alan

mcrandall · Post by **mcrandall** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:00 pm

Thanks for going thru all the trouble, Alan!

So I guess whenever you're using your motor, your rudder is at least down that 10-12", yes?

Thanks again!
Mark

Jmckamey · Post by **Jmckamey** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:56 am

Not sure yet as the 22's mount is lower than the 20's was. I'm thinking about moving the motor mount to the side.

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:59 pm

mcrandall wrote:Thanks for going thru all the trouble, Alan!

So I guess whenever you're using your motor, your rudder is at least down that 10-12", yes?

Thanks again!
Mark

Yup, I figure the end of my rudder must be down at least that 10" to 12" below the stern of my boat to miss the motor keel/foot when I move it back and fourth past center... With the motor down that is.

With the motor up and tilted I can pull the motor 100% out of the water. Which would allow my rudder to come up all the way and swing clear when my motor is up. You can see the motor up and tilted clear of the water on my avatar photo to the left of this post.

Thanks
Alan

RedCanyon · Post by **RedCanyon** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:14 pm

My rudder is plenty long enough to have gotten chewed up by my outboard several times over the last few years when the lock-down had loosened while operating with the motor.

I have "There, I fixed it" (see: http://thereifixedit.failblog.org/) by installing a prop guard so that if/when the rudder swings up it hits the guard rather than the prop, but I am in serious need of some effective system to lock down the rudder but still allow me to swing it up for shoal use.

Can anyone help me out? Anyone have a good rudder lock-down for their C-26 that they like and could send or post pics of? Thanks!

Banshi · Post by **Banshi** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:39 pm

It is not just the prop chewing the rudder that is the issue, it can also prevent you from turning in one direction and that direction is usually the one you need go to avoid trouble

.

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:54 pm

RedCanyon wrote: Anyone have a good rudder lock-down for their C-26 that they like and could send or post pics of? Thanks!

EE used to have a small dowel stuck thru a knot in the line that goes down the tube when the rudder comes up. It was placed to stop the rudder from coming up too far since it would lie across the tube. But it would break if you grounded as a "give way".

RedCanyon · Post by **RedCanyon** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:12 pm

That is an excellent idea. Especially the "shear pin" component.

Do you do something differently these days?

Also, do you know how the factory set it up on our C-26s? I don't think that I have ever seen what "factory original" was supposed to have been.

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:54 pm

The lake she's on now is 12' at the slip, and no real shallow places at all, so I leave it cleated to the tiller in the down position..lol, actually at the moment the rudder is in the shop here at the house and the motor is at the lake 45 miles away..no interference at all..

RedCanyon · Post by **RedCanyon** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:01 pm

EmergencyExit wrote:The lake she's on now is 12' at the slip, and no real shallow places at all, so I leave it cleated to the tiller in the down position..lol, actually at the moment the rudder is in the shop here at the house and the motor is at the lake 45 miles away..no interference at all..

OK, so the OEM installation is that the rudder line comes up through the tiller post, folds over the top and cleats to the tiller?

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:29 am

Not sure what the original OEM was, probably didn't have a cleat tho - I run EE's up the tube, then one goes on each side of the tiller, then they are tied together under the tiller, making a loop. That way one or the other can't fall down the tube. As long as you have the tails long enough you can still cleat it off..

lecker68 · Post by **lecker68** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:48 am

Yes OEM had a cleat on the tiller handle as I have a wheel but I have the original tiller and there is a cleat.

RedCanyon · Post by **RedCanyon** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:33 am

thanks guys.

Just like EE's setup, I have a pair of lines (one to hold rudder up, one to hold it down) the come up the rudder tube and are tied, and which cleat to the top of the tiller.

Here is my REAL issue: To cleat to the tiller, the line in use (99% of the time it's the rudder hold-down) has to make a sharp 90 degree to cleat on the tiller. Through the season the line chafes at the 90, and by about August it chafes through, disabling rudder hold-down (and getting chewed up in my prop and disabling steering with the outboard down).

I LIKE EE's dowel/shear pin idea as that negates the 90 degree bend in the line, although at the compromise of no adjustability, and will try that for lack of anything better. But there has GOT to be something better! Maybe? More ideas?

lecker68 · Post by **lecker68** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:33 am

Mine does the same and I am trying to fab a block for the rudder post something like a mast exit block or similar to block in boom for outhaul but I am not going to cut till I am sure it will not pevent rudder post removal.

RedCanyon · Post by **RedCanyon** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:12 am

I've tried to think of something similar. But I very much want/need the ability to lift the tiller high when I am maneuvering in a crowded mooring field or trying to dock under sail. Everything I've come up with so far impedes lifting the tiller.

I sure want to see what you come up with!

lecker68 · Post by **lecker68** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:08 pm

what if you got a block in there and relocate the cleat past the hinge point? I have a wheel so when I get a block in there I am going to mount a small cleat to the side of the rudder post.

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:39 pm

Hey RedCanyon,

I have a jam cleat on my tiller to lock the rudder rope into any position I like. It's worked really well for me. I have a C-22 so this may be a different set up from a C-26.

Kind of hard to see in this photo but look by the knee of the guy at the tiller. You can see my new rope is in the jam cleat and then the left over rope I keep it bungeed to the arm of the tiller. The rope is blue and white nylon.

I rebuilt this after this 1st photo was taken, new rope etc. when I rebuilt the rudder. The 2nd photo I took while sailing with the neighbors. Okay I did not rebuild the rudder exactly. More like took it all apart, cleaned it, painted it and put in all new hardware. I guess rebuilt not remade.

I did not realize at that time that there was a down rudder rope which I have and an up rudder rope. When I got my boat it only had a rope for pulling the rudder down so that's the way I put it back in. My rudder floats so when I release the dawn haul rope it floats back up.

Thanks
Alan

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:50 pm

Ah, I posted just a couple moments too early. Red Canyon, you just posted a much better photo of the jam cleat then mine.

Thanks
Alan

RedCanyon · Post by **RedCanyon** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:53 pm

my setup is very similar

the below photo (if I can make this work) of my broken tiller having just been repaired "at sea" [Thank you Lord! for cheap-ass cordless drills] should give you a good visual of the "rudder up" and "rudder down" lines coming up through the rudder post and folding over to cleat on the tiller. Once cleated, the line chafes more from the tiller pivoting up and down than from any side-to-side movement.

100_2114 by Keith_in_Wi, on Flickr

As you can see, on my C-26 the line is not held away from the edge of the rudder post as it appears to be on the C-22 above. Rather, it rides hard on the forward edge of the top of the rudder post tube, seriously chafing.

Edit 1: the url works but no image! Anybody tell me simply what I'm doing wrong?

Edit 2: NOW I remember why I haven't used Flickr for several years!! lol (Thanks EE)

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:46 pm

Flickr doesn't exactly play well with others - there some hints and a link in the thread
http://www.chryslersailors.com/discussi ... php?t=2499

Chrysler Sailors Forum

Rudder/motor Contention

Rudder/motor Contention

c-26 rudder/outboard interferrence

Re: c-26 rudder/outboard interferrence

@ EE

rudder hold down line cleating