Motor down, rudder up

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fritz3000g
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:00 pm

Motor down, rudder up

Postby fritz3000g » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:01 pm

Didn't get any bites on the Rudder forum, so thought I'd try this here.

This seems like an obvious question, but I've yet to see it asked on the forums. I'm starting to save up for a Chrysler 26, and the one thing I can't figure out is how you motor in shallow water with the rudder up and motor down. It seems like the rudder would hit the motor when it's straight.

Thanks!

Skipper Dan
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:33 am

Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby Skipper Dan » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:37 pm

Do not put the rudder all the way up. Just high enough that it is higher than the keel. Also you can at the same time leave the motor ricked up also. Steer with the rudder not the motor. If you are so shallow that the rudder will hit all the way down you should not be going very fast.

fritz3000g
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:00 pm

Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby fritz3000g » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:22 pm

Skipper Dan wrote:Do not put the rudder all the way up. Just high enough that it is higher than the keel.

Thanks Skipper Dan. It sounds like the rudder can be raised up higher than the keel, so there's enough room to leave it down just a bit (below the level of the prop) and still motor. Is that right? And you can still steer the rudder in this position?

This is the best pic I can find of the rudder and keel, and it looks like the keel (up) might be a few inches lower than the rudder (up): http://www.sailingtexas.com/Pics/picchrysler26107a.jpg

Skipper Dan
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Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby Skipper Dan » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:39 pm

Sail drive mounted.jpg
You can lower the rudder about 8 to 2 inches and it will be about level with the keel. You can also tip the motor up and clear the rudder. This is if you are skimming the bottom. how often are you going to be in that shallow of water? How fast do you expect to go? If the motor is just under the water you will not be that close to the rudder. I think with the rudder all the way down you are at 4' draft. It is at least 12" higher than the keel when up. You also can just keep the rudder line in your hand so if it hits you can just slack off a little. I modified mine so I do not have that problem. :-)

Skipper Dan
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Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby Skipper Dan » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:40 pm

sorry 8 to 12 inches

brigadoon
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Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby brigadoon » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:08 pm

You’re right that there is no really good way to run with the motor down in really shallow water. Typically you will avoid those situations as much as possible. There are two solutions if you know that you are going to be facing that on a regular basis. The best solution is to fabricate a shallow water rudder design. I believe there are one or two boats on this forum in the past that have used a rudder of this design. One, main sheet mike does not post on the forum but is still a member. He owns a 26 that has been to the Bahamas a couple of times and sports a shallow non retractable rudder . He lives close to me and I could get you a picture. The other solution would be to move the motor mount to the side. This would give you little wiggle room with the rudder but is not ideal. Skipper dan suggested holding the down rope in your hand so the rudder can raise a little if it drags, another method in this vein is to fasten a tight bunji on the down rope and to the back rail to keep tension on the down rope while still allowing the rudder to move up . Ultimately steering with the rudder up at any angle is hard on all the structure as the torque on everything makes steering harder the higher the rudder is raised. Even raising it a little will make steering tough at any speed. Hope this helps
Rick

fritz3000g
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:00 pm

Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby fritz3000g » Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:05 pm

Thanks everyone. This is helpful. I was able to find two pics of modified rudders online.

http://www.sailingtexas.com/Picsb/picchrysler26ba.jpg
http://www.sailingtexas.com/Picsb/picchrysler26dc.jpg

Both look like the made the rudders much wider, so slightly less than ideal (more pressure on the pivot point).

I think I prefer the option of marking the rope so I can tell when the ruder is just below the motor.

Skipper Dan, I can't figure out what your picture is showing, beyond the prop. Did you cut a hole in your hull forward of the rudder for the motor shaft? If so, how did you water seal it? What does it look like inside the cabin?

Skipper Dan
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:33 am

Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby Skipper Dan » Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:43 pm

Electric drive 1.jpg
Sail Drive platform.jpg

I have an electric drive, I used a 9.9 lower unit and mated it to the hull just aft of the keel. the prop wash goes over the rudder so steering is very good. the lower unit sits behind and above the keel so it is well protected. I would never go back to an outboard. I can motor sail all day. I always have power instantly if needed and usually have it on just spinning with very little amps so I do not have drag.

Skipper Dan
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:33 am

Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby Skipper Dan » Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:52 pm

Sail drive.jpg


I welded an aluminum plate to the lower unit. This is sealed from the platform in the post above. Also it is sealed around the lower unit itself with butyl tape for sealing windshields. I have never had a leak.

Skipper Dan
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:33 am

Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby Skipper Dan » Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:54 pm

By the way, I can unbolt the lower unit with the four lower bolts and replace it if I need to. The fixed part never needs to come out.

fritz3000g
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Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby fritz3000g » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:59 am

Wow Skipper Dan that's fascinating. What kind of motor did you get?

Skipper Dan
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:33 am

Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby Skipper Dan » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:04 am

60 volt AC induction motor brushless.

Skipper Dan
Posts: 79
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Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby Skipper Dan » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:12 am


fritz3000g
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Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby fritz3000g » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:32 am

I think you mean 60v DC motor per the product page. That motor shows 3 kW (4 hp), drawing 50A at full power.

If you had (5) 12v 200AH ($300 and 120 lbs each) batteries that would exhaust them in 4 hours at full power, wouldn't it? Do you have bigger batteries than that?

I suppose you could run it for 12 hours if you had a 2000W inverter generator, which would still be quieter than an ouboard if you ran more than say 2 hours and you could put it wherever you want. It would be a hybrid boat!

Total cost would be similar to a 10hp outboard:
  • Motor: $300
  • Batteries: $1500
  • Generator: $800
  • Lower Unit: $200

What do you use for speed control in the cockpit?

Skipper Dan
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:33 am

Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby Skipper Dan » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:05 pm

Well it is a sailboat, full power is more like 80 to 100 amps. I have never run it that high you are just pushing water at that point. I can run it at about 4 mph which is a good clip for my boat @ I think it was about 40 or 50 amps. mostly I run it at 2 mph that's 10 amps. I use cheap menards Exide batteries group 27 6 of them 5 for the 60v system and one for the 12 volt house. the 12 volt feeds off of the 60v via a step down. 6 solar panels keeps them in balance. I have a Honda generator that I used to use 2000. that would keep me moving with the on board 10 amp 60v charger. But I am building a diesel alternator @ 60v about 25 to 35 amps. If it works well I will build a better alternator at about 80 amps. That means that I can charge the batteries in about 30 min to an hour between 50 and 80%, the area that the batteries will accept the most amps. The key really is to not use the generator at all. But it is there just in case. 10 hp Diesel ICE takes very little fuel. Batteries are less than $600 and last 2 to 3 years. I might go with Trojan 12v @ $165 next year just to see the difference. My whole system is based on living off grid not traveling by prop power. The batteries are mostly for the house, the prop is just an extra advantage of my system. By the way the lower unit was Free! and my Diesel alternator will be about $500.00 and will blow a generator out of the water. speed control is a simple https://kellycontroller.com/shop/contro ... ntrol-box/

Skipper Dan
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:33 am

Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby Skipper Dan » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:12 pm

It is an AC induction motor, "AC Induction Motors with Encoder" you can run it AC or DC. They do not have my motor anymore it was rated at 100 amps for 2 min. It all comes down to heat and how you get rid of it. The whole difference between what I have (Hybrid) and a 10 hp ICE outboard is you still have to buy fuel and you rely on it starting when needed. You also have it hanging off the back end. If I just rely on solar This system does not cost me anything and is much more reliable. I need the batteries anyway for the house side, (I have a 110v refrig). I designed this boat as a liveaboard for doing the Great Loop. It may be hard to understand until you try it but there is something about just turning a knob to use the prop at any time. No starting up the motor that may or may not start at the most inopportune time.

fritz3000g
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Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby fritz3000g » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:30 am

Thanks! I think your idea is really cool, and will think about doing it myself when I get my next boat (hoping C26). I'd been under the impression that the Great Loop was primarily about motoring, and that the Mississippi required a pretty large motor to overcome the sometimes very strong current. Does that mean you'll mount an outboard as well?

Skipper Dan
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:33 am

Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby Skipper Dan » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:38 pm

I did the upper Mississippi WI to St Louis on a 28' Triton sailboat with a 6 hp outboard at just an idle. There are a lot of sailboats on the Mississippi places as big as lakes. Depending on which way you go you are also traveling though a large lake. Once you get to the Gulf you are sailing all the way back up to New York. You also go to the Bahamas. The canals at the top is where you need to motor, but I only motored at an idle on the Mississippi and if you add the speed of the river I was going 8 or 9 mph sometimes 10. It is not a journey to be in a hurry. There are so many things to do along the way and as my boat will be basically off grid all I need to pay for is food. The reason I went electric. I can swap out my motor for the bigger 10hp model if needed but I doubt I will ever have to. My motor pushes my boat past hull speed so I am not sure what a bigger motor will do. It does not matter what your hp is the boat is only going to go hull speed. If the current is faster than your hull speed you are not going to go anywhere. Hull speed is relation to the water not land. I had a Taylorcraft that I could actually fly backwards in a 40 mph wind. I flew a Cessna 150 to FL once and sat still over a farm because the wind was as fast as I could go. It is the same with a boat. You are only going to go so fast through the water. If the water is going faster than your boat in relation to land you are going to go backwards in relation to land. By the way The Great Loop is a great trip in a sailboat even better on the Chrysler 26 because you can lower the mast when needed and it has a nice shallow draft. You can leave the keel down a couple of feet in case you get too shallow then just raise it up and back out if needed. I got stuck plenty on the Triton and with a full keel it was not fun trying to get loose. BTW I will never ever mount an outboard!

fritz3000g
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Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby fritz3000g » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:15 pm

To return to the original question, here's another potential solution: Image

You could use a hydraulic lifting bracket (or a regular bracket with a 3:1) as well. With the motor so far back a throttle extension would be helpful.

Skipper Dan
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:33 am

Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby Skipper Dan » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:43 pm

Just put a remote on it. It does not have to turn so a simple remote to the cockpit would be an easy fix. Throttle lever that goes forward and reverse. You are going to have trouble with it coming out of the water in rough water though.

fritz3000g
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Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:00 pm

Re: Motor down, rudder up

Postby fritz3000g » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:49 pm

Skipper Dan wrote:Just put a remote on it. It does not have to turn so a simple remote to the cockpit would be an easy fix.

I've got an outboard on my boat behind the rudder, and I do have to turn it in close quarters, especially when windy. Rudder just doesn't turn the boat that fast.

Agree on it coming out of the water. An adjustable mount allows you to lower it down so the whole motor shaft is in the water. That's what I do in waves. Big waves (>4') can swamp it when it's that low, but I haven't noticed it being a problem.


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