C-20 is Here...or, Let's Begin Another Project

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OutnBacker
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C-20 is Here...or, Let's Begin Another Project

Post by OutnBacker »

I got the C-20 home on a shaky trailer that didn't like going over 55mph. But, it'll do for a few short trips to the ramp before I dig into it. At least it has Bearing Buddies.

The boat is rough, but not quite as rough as the C-22 I just sold. However, it has signifigant rot of the plywood panels related to the keel support housing (if that is what it is)under the bridge deck. A good push with the thumb could go through in a couple places. That won't be much fun, given the location. Think winter in the shop there. There has been alot of water lying in there, as I suspected from the bow-down waterline stains on the hull.

Other than that and the rough trailer, it's not bad and can be sailed tomorrow, which may happen depending on weather, which has been crap this weekend.

But first, I want to ask the group about that suppoprt area. What exactly is its function and can the swing keel break off and be lost if the structure is compromised? There appears to be a keel pivot pin visible at the fwd end of the shoal keel outside the boat, so I don't think the keel could actually fall off, but what is inside that interior housing besides the keel haul-up?

Opinions please...

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I swung by the truck stop on the way in and weighed the trailer and boat, with no motor.

It came in at 3660, so I figure 3700 with the motor and a 3gal tank. The trailer registered weight is 850 and is a single axle. This puts the boat weight at 2810lbs - quite different than advertised, and very near the 3000lb advertised weight of my C-22 - which I now doubt was accurate either. Jus'sayin'

John
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Post by cjreardon »

If I can picture it right, the structure below the gangway supports the mast and maybe the winch that lowers the keel. Any rotten wood on a boat should be on the short list to be fixed, or the problem will just get worse and harder to fix. It is probably a compression force on it winch makes it stronger than it looks. I think the keel boot is relatively solid and heavy. The scupper in the center of the keel trunk where the cable goes is pretty big and a cool way to do it. I am a big fan of large scuppers. I saw a Hunter 21 fill up with rain water and almost sank at the dock because of a leaf blocking it's dinky scupper. I was looking for my first sailboat at the time and that is how I started looking at the Chryslers and the C22 because of their deck drains.
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Post by OutnBacker »

I also liked the 22 deck drains. Plus a small cockpit that cant swamp the ship. Having just gotten the 20, I hope to dig in after this season and go through the boat with some detail. Not a resto, but a good critical refit where needed.

Since I opened this thread, I've sort of pictured a little better in my mind exactly what that structure is for. There is the short, sturdy comp post at the fwd end of the structure, then the glass encased scupper/haul-up tube at the aft end. So I suspect as you say, that it is merely a support to keep those ridgid. Clearly, the keel pivot is down at the front end of the pod and well below this thing.

The rotten plywood is on both sides of the support and form the upright sides of the structure. The glass skin has cracked and fractured away from it, so it's serious. Then, there is a plywood sole on each side of the support. Both of these are rotten as well. I suspect the outer hull is a couple inches below these. Tomorrow, I'll cut a hole thorough and stick a plumber's mirror under the wood to see what goes on in there.
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Post by Chrysler20%26 »

I think you will be vary happy you got it. An I see that I have a lot to learn about the C-20.
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Post by OutnBacker »

I'll get some pics of the area in question and we'll all learn alot more about the apperantly somewhat rare C-20. As to how happy I'll be about it, let's just say for now that ignorance is bliss. I'm happy to have secured one, but I have yet to sail it. I would go out today, but the weather looks very wet right now.

There are details I like very much over the C-22 I just sold.

1) This boat has bronze turn buckles of the open barrel old style that I appreciate very much. I never liked the other type with the stamped strap outer body that housed the threaded rod. The thimble adjuster relied on thumb grip alone. Not good.

2) The dual lower shrouds plus the single upper are a welcome design feature on a 20 footer. Very stout.

3) Although the mast step is located directly in the way of the companionway, it is located well below the cabin top, on the bridge deck. Thus, there is a mechanical advantage when stepping the mast because the forces to raise it are much greater at the beginning of the arc. So, when the step is low, and the mast is resting over the aft rail at an angle of about 20 degrees to start, it is easier on the gear and the crew to get it past the most stressful section of the arc.

4) It is very dirty but shows remarkably few stress cracks in the usual places. This one will be relatively easy to prep for paint - should I get that happy over it. :wink: The practical sailor in me says that a pretty boat has no advantage over an ugly one on the water, so paint will be down the list. Besides, on a cost effectiveness scale - paint is a huge part of that Hole-In-The-Water story. You really gotta love your boat because there is little to no return on these old trailer sailers. They ain't Flickas or Cape Dories.

5) Unless there are bad hull blisters under the thick and rough bottom paint, I don't see that much more to deal with, really. After I deal with the rot issue, it will likely remain a rough-and-tumble old sailer.
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Post by OutnBacker »

Here are some pics of the worst of it. Other than this, the boat is pretty solid. I wonder if I should drill some exploratory holes in the upright panels to check for wet foam??? Do I really want to do that?

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Post by EmergencyExit »

I think you are right; that's where the keel head locks into, same as on the C26. You won't be alone in that repair either. Due to EE having sat with the hatch open (someone seems to have had a look inside at the club and not closed it), and having a foot of water in there for who knows how long, her side plates on that trunk are rotted as well. Not looking forward to getting those off at all..
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Post by OutnBacker »

Looks like a Grunt Factor of 10 to me.

But, an excuse to go buy one of those nifty Roto-Zips with some cutting wheels... a bucket of 'em. I have a compressor, so an air chisel comes to mind as well. I'm pretty sure the side panels will come off with little fuss once the resin/glass along the edges is severed. The sole panels look like they are screwed down along the edges with an angle iron strip that turns the corner and goes up an inch.

Here's the thing that I don't visualize: If the drop keel pivots from that large pin outside the boat hull, near the FWD end of the keel pod (supported by an iron shoe), then what does the actual keel look like?

It must resemble the hands of a clock showing 12:15 when hauled up, and 2:20 when dropped. That pin must be through a hole in the keel in the center of the clock.

Do I get that right? There's lots of stuff regarding the C-22 keel, but I haven't found any pics or people that have ever seen the one from a C-20.

Stand by. As I sail this boat through the season, I may become the Source' d'Oracle on this model. That is, if I like it enough...
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Post by EmergencyExit »

Looking form port side that's a good description, at least of the C26 keel which you can see here
as hosted by Windward

http://chryslersailing.lizards.net/sail ... acket.html

If you look you may also see the keel shoe/pin at the front of the pocket, as in the C26. Never having seen a C20 I'm really just speculating tho..
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Post by CaptainScott »

Hey Congrats John!!
Sounds like you made a deal with Ryan!

I think you will be happy with the C20! Especially if you like to go crabbing! The cockpit in her is so huge!

You indicated getting her ready for paint . . . Do you plan on painting the hull vs polishing it? Or are you talking about the interior? Does not matter, I'm just a curious sort of fellow! I thought she looked pretty good with the yellow boot strip!

Did you grab the motor also?

When you get her sorted, I'd like to go with you sailing one afternoon.
We could dump both Lady Jo and Chance in the river and just sail around there! I could bring a nice camera and get some good shots for you also!

The Shot of Alan on our main page is one I took!

Again, Congrats!
Scott
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Post by OutnBacker »

EE,
I can envision all kinds of sideways problems with fabricating a new bracket. Just think how bad things might go if that new hole is mis-located even a few millimeters. I would really have to trust a shop alot with that one, I can tell you. I may clean mine up and get a good look at it over the summer while sailing it. It's rusty, but hard to tell how bad at this preliminary stage. First, I want to find out if I'm gonna fall in love with the boat and if suits my sailing style. Ease of setup, sailing and occasional rough stuff are the criteria. I don't want a boat that feels like it will pitch me over the side like a full bed pan on a heel. She must be stiff, thus my nit-picking about the weight callouts and ballast, which still remains ambiguous.

Unless someone comes forth with technical data that can cooraborate what I suspect - or hope - we will not know til I open that trunk this winter.

Capt. Scott,
You are on the short list for crew. I did get the motor. There was considerable difficulty in getting it to run, but Ryan then realised he had forgotten to loosen the air valve on the tank. Gosh, I've never done that... :roll: Last night I took some 00000 steel wool and Miguiar's #2 to it. It doesn't even look like the same engine.

I did say it is a good candidate for a re-paint, due to the few visible defects in the decking gelcoat. Just a few spider cracks. But, as stated above: There is only pride of ownership here and not a penny of return to be had. So, If I decide to paint it, it means I'm hooked on this particular boat model and I would do a 50% resto over a couple winters. That includes an exterior paint job, interior paint job with new carpet on the inner hull, new vinyl fitted cover for the V-berth area held in place with velcro. No cushions. I need a durable interior. If I ever camp out of it, I'll bring an air mattress.

Before interior paint, I would determine the condition of the enclosed foam by boring several test holes and extracting deep core samples with a sharp steel tube. It isn't that much pre-work and really tells you the story. The rot in the sole and trunk, I'll have to address this winter in the shop. Not really any choice there as that trunk is obviously open to the sea.

Mostly right now and going forward this season, I'll just sail it, observe it and take notes on all the issues that come up - if it leaks, where it leaks, etc.

You would be a very welcome crewman with your knowledge of Things Boaty. My wingman, Jeff, wants go sailcanoe camping up at Baker Lake this weekend, but if the weather looks spotty here, it'll surely be retched up there. So I'm lobbying for a sailing weekend here. If I prevail, I'll put the boat in friday morning (day off) at the guest dock and have it on hand all weekend. I'll keep you in the loop.

The other thing is that the guy who you saw with me that day also bought my C-22. He may call me for assistance and I assured him I would do my best to be around. So maybe hanging out in Everett would be the thing to do rather than going to Baker Lake. It can really suck up there this early in the season. Socks in and just pours...

Til then,
John
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Post by OutnBacker »

UPDATE: Note to Self...

Add rudder post repair to Projects List. This one won't wait til the off season. I thought I felt some thumping at the tiller the second day out, so I went under when I got it home and found that the lower bearing was sloppy. There is a part that is shaped like a half ball, upside down, on the outside of the hull, housed in a rounded recess that obviously is meant to keep it there. But the part is just sitting loose down on the rudder. When I push it back up into its recess, the rudder post stiffens somewhat, but not enough.

I can't make out any evidence that this upside down teacup is supposed to be fixed in place, but I can't see how it stays up in the recess unless it is. Maybe it is the lower half of a two part assembly that has broken off from the upper half?

I just had neck surgery so I can't really crawl back inside very easliy right now to get a look at the lower bearing assembly.

here's a vid...

http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/OutnB ... 4147071325
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Post by EmergencyExit »

Rats, can't see video at work, and 'Droid phone is acting up too. Assuming its same or similar to the C26; what holds the lower bearing in place is a locking ring on the top of the post just under the tiller and above the upper bearing. See if you can pull up on the tiller and if the post moves up with it. If so then you may can loosen that ring, pull up on post, then lower the ring and tighten the ring's set screws back up..EE only had a piece of PVC pipe for a ring, and that didn't work at all !

apologies if am guessing wrong without seeing the setup.
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Post by OutnBacker »

EmergencyExit wrote:Rats, can't see video at work, and 'Droid phone is acting up too. Assuming its same or similar to the C26; what holds the lower bearing in place is a locking ring on the top of the post just under the tiller and above the upper bearing. See if you can pull up on the tiller and if the post moves up with it. If so then you may can loosen that ring, pull up on post, then lower the ring and tighten the ring's set screws back up..EE only had a piece of PVC pipe for a ring, and that didn't work at all !

apologies if am guessing wrong without seeing the setup.
Some still shots maybe. The axial slop (up and down) is only about 1/8 inch, but it flops around pretty bad radially in the lower hole. if you could see the vid, it would be obvious.
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Post by EmergencyExit »

Just saw video. Looks like bearing is broken. "Teacup" part should be together with the sleeve part. Should be one piece mushroom..like this.

http://www.ruddercraft.com/catalog/prod ... cts_id=483

EE's was like that until I got another one. I 5200'd that puppy together until I could replace it. Still have it !
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Post by OutnBacker »

As I thought - a broken two piece bushing.

So, before I go twisting and squeezing my way into the aft caverns, full of darkness and woe, are you suggesting that the upper part on the inside of the hull is loose as well? The reason I ask is that there is no flooding in the boat. So the rudder post tube must be intact around the bushing sleeve, and the upper part of the bushing must still be watertight to the inside of the hull, right? If the upper half of the bushing is loose, the boat would take on huge amounts of water immedeately, right?

And, how do these two parts stay together. There appears to be no threads in the pics on the websight. Do they just get 5200'd to the inside surface of the hull?

Or, does the entire bushing spin with the rudder post during use, as there is no evidence that the "teacup" was ever adhered to the outer recess at all. Seems to me that everything should be 5200'd but the post itself.
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Post by EmergencyExit »

At least on my 26's they just friction fit with no adhesive. If the post is pulled up tight and the set ring is down snug so there's no up and down slop they really shouldn't rotate; its easier for the post to turn inside the bearing than for the whole bearing to spin. Couple old thumb pics below of the assembly from EE. Again, assuming they are the same or similar.

PS, I think if these weren't hollow under the dome of the mushroom they wouldn't break as much. Wonder why they are made that way ? Weight saving ? LOL

Image

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Post by OutnBacker »

Well, that about sums it up as to what to do in the short term:

It looks like the sleeve portion is still on the post, then. I can't tell it from the wear marks, but it must be there. Since I have the same setup, I'll buy a tube of 5200, push up on the rudder post til there is no axial slop, then goop up the tea cup to the broken sleeve and let it set til solid.

If any goop gets into the interior hull side and sticks to the post, it won't be enough to keep me from breaking it loose with the tiller.

I figure that should at least get me back on the water for the season, til I can wheel the whole boat into my shop this fall.

Excellent pics EE. Thanks a bunch. Good on ya!

John (OutnBacker)
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Post by EmergencyExit »

You're welcome. Grab yourself a bottle jack and a 2x4. Perfect for pushing the post up and holding it in place while the 5200 dries ! I also filled the underside of the mushroom for good measure..
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Post by OutnBacker »

EmergencyExit wrote:You're welcome. Grab yourself a bottle jack and a 2x4. Perfect for pushing the post up and holding it in place while the 5200 dries ! I also filled the underside of the mushroom for good measure..
Exactly. Like you said, it is non sequitur to have made a hollow bushing for such a tough job.

I'll post pics of the process to add to the few bits we have on these boats. I think that all these records should be also sent over to Sailing Lizards.net as well.
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Post by astrorad »

My 1976 C22 did not have the mushroom bushing and it does not have the spherical indentation in the hull for one to fit into...it simply had a plastic through hull with threads and a plastic nut to hold it in place. The black radiator type hose was then clamped to the through hull and rises up to clamp onto the lower end of the upper rudder bearing. On top of the upper bearing is the aluminum collar that holds the rudder post up with three set screws.
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Post by OutnBacker »

astrorad wrote:My 1976 C22 did not have the mushroom bushing and it does not have the spherical indentation in the hull for one to fit into...it simply had a plastic through hull with threads and a plastic nut to hold it in place. The black radiator type hose was then clamped to the through hull and rises up to clamp onto the lower end of the upper rudder bearing. On top of the upper bearing is the aluminum collar that holds the rudder post up with three set screws.
I've seen that setup in your phot/video log. My C-22 was the same. I actually would have preferred that.
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Post by Chrysler20%26 »

You just had neck surgery, may you have a speedy recovery. I went an looked at my C-20 an it looks like yours. Good info from EE, an I will be doing what you do. Thank You
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Post by OutnBacker »

Chrysler20%26 wrote:You just had neck surgery, may you have a speedy recovery. I went an looked at my C-20 an it looks like yours. Good info from EE, an I will be doing what you do. Thank You
Too bushed to go at it tonight, but tomorrow I'm going to try and drop the rudder post and take everything to the bench. I don't think I can do a clean job with the rudder assembly in place. I'll need a fresh batch ofpatience to un-freeze the corroded woodruff key from the post. It is seized so the tiller block won't pry off and I don't want to force anything at this point.

I'll take lots of pics and caption them as I go for you or anyone else that might want to do this in the future.

John
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Post by Chrysler20%26 »

http://youtu.be/ufDeHz3FxfI If you look at Broses video, you do have the hose. Water will not rush in, you could pull the rudder in the winter.
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Post by OutnBacker »

I saw that vid the other day. I like the cryptic music. The only noise I heard in mine was grunting.

Also, I lied last night: Even though I was pretty tuckered, I did the same tour in mine and it's the same as his. I also put in a little effort trying to un-sieze the tiller block from the upper end of the rudder post. Nothing doing there. That key is swollen up and corroded in the slot pretty bad. I'll have to look into some kind of way to pull it off using a bottle jack and some timber laid across the gunnels over the top of the post. Crank a bit, tap a bit. Hopefully, it won't crack anything because all the counter force is against plastic/fiber glass.

The reason I want to drop the whole thing out is because even though I can push the lower bushing back up into its recess, there is still signifigant play at the bottom. Something else is going on in there where I can't see it. The lower end of the tube is secure to the inside of the hull. We're water tight for now. But there must be some type of flange or sleeve that is broken inside the tube. Problem is, I can't roll over in there to apply both hands to remove it to see, so it's an outside job for me.


Wait a minute! ....I think I've got it. ...be back later...

EDIT: Later that day...

Okay, I took up some slack in the post to draw the lower bushing halves togther up in the lower recess. That worked to eliminate the slop. Then, I laid on my back and got some 5200 up in the hollow between the inverted dome and the sleeve, which is still on the post. Now, I just need to monitor the slumping adhesive to try and keep most of it up in there where it can do some good. It'll be a phased approach, with a couple coats to fill the cavity because the slump is just too much for a one-time app. This is NOT my normal quality of work.

If this doesn't work, I'll be in for a real mess, trying to undo this. In any case, the post will have to come out. My concern is whether the 5200 can withstand the water pressure against a working rudder. We'll soon see. The worst that can happen is that it just starts flopping again.
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Post by OutnBacker »

Well, for better or worse - it's done. Now, I'll have to wait til next launch to see if it will hold. The cavity is filled with 5200 and seems to be setting up nicely. Far messier than it would have been if I had been able to easily drop the whole rudder assembly and used my bench.

The goop slid down the sleeve and has adhered the post to the bushing, but I don't think it will have much effect. The bushing is supposed to be free floating in the recess and not part of the rudder post. If it causes problems, I can cut the small amount if overlapping 5200 with a hot Xacto knife.

I feel I shall be re-visiting this sooner rather than later to do a right proper job. But for now, I just want it to hold on a fast reach, and not thump on a broad or when running.

Thanks EE for the great pics of the dis-assembled unit.

John
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Post by EmergencyExit »

OutnBacker wrote: Thanks EE for the great pics of the dis-assembled unit.
John
Glad to help..Personally I hate working with 5200, I get it all over everything within 10 feet. :oops: Stuff works where nothing else does tho..
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Post by OutnBacker »

Had the assembly come apart for me, I would have used MAS epoxy thickened with colloidal silica to a consistancy of toothpaste. That would make a one piece bushing. 5200 is great stuff, but I've only used it for re-seating deck hardware. I figured it would be a mess, and it was.

Fortunately, it's under water so no one will see it :oops:

Like I said: I just hope it holds over the season.
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Post by Chrysler20%26 »

Doing the best we can with what we have to work with. Yes I too hope it holds. Nice to get to knew your boat be for starting big repairs. now happy sailing.
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