First REAL sail with the Sandpiper! Couple Questions...

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Zac Penn
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First REAL sail with the Sandpiper! Couple Questions...

Post by Zac Penn »

Besides the maiden voyage there has never been any wind the two times I have gone out. All last week I was watching the weather and it had been calling for 10-15 mph winds all weekend so I was excited to go out. Saturday morning rolls around and it is overcast, drizzling and my wife was not looking forward to our trip. I live about 30 minutes away from my boat and the trees were barely blowing so I was starting to loose excitement as well.

Pulling up to the ramp to start rigging the boat you could barely see flags flying in the marina and the water looked pretty calm in the bay. As we were launching a Sunfish was coming in and he said the wind was great out in the river once you got out of the bay, and boy was he right. Wind had to have been a steady 20 mph with gusts probably up to 30 mph and I had a completely novice crew and I am not very experienced myself.

I don't know the percentage of our Genoa but it is pretty big headsail. I wasn't expecting such high winds so I had rigged up the genoa instead of the storm jib, but I didn't want to change sails so I could get a good learning experience in heavier winds. Luckily my crew wasn't a bunch of pansies and they were only slightly anxious at the high level of heel we had with such high winds. I did learn quite a bit about how the boat behaves in high winds.

I certainly learned that my homemade rudder (http://www.chryslersailors.com/discussi ... php?t=4136) is not great at countering the sail/heel steering in high winds. It is just too thin to create a good enough airfoil shape so it looses efficiency real fast if you have to turn it much. I need to look into getting a thicker piece of HDPE to shape or make one out of wood. I had a blast in the high winds and I want to do it every chance I get so I want to build a rudder that can handle it. Would making it taller than OEM help?

Leading car blocks for the genoa... Where do you guys place them? I had mine just stern of the back window and I don't think they were far enough back to get a really flat sail. I certainly did not need the power from a deep camber but I couldn't get it to flatten out.
Also do you run your sheets on the outside of the life line so it goes straight to the leading car block or do you make the sheet come over the lifeline then down to the block?

How do you keep your sheets from overlapping themselves on the winch? If I wrap it 2 times and pull the sheet during a tack it stays nice and flat on the winch but if I wrap it 3+ times the sheets try to overlap themselves and get into a knot on the winch. In order for my winch to even grab the sheet while using the winch handle it has to be wrapped 4+ times and even then you have to pull on the sheet while using the handle for it not to slip. These are brand new 3/8" sheets (not cheap) so I was hoping they would grip better. When it is wrapped that many times you can only get about two revolutions of the handle before the sheets create a knot.

Also I found it hard to work the winch in high winds because the crew had to be on the leeward side of the boat to counteract the heeling, and to get to the working sheets you had to jump to the low side to turn the handle. Do you guys run the sheet up to the windward winch and just bypass it and work the sheet from the leeward winch so you can stay on the high side?

I have to run but I have more questions to ask. I appreciate any comments and advice you can provide.

Thanks,
Zac
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EmergencyExit
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Post by EmergencyExit »

Sounds like a great day ! Couple things I can pitch in on, just theory things

- you can get an idea of jib size with a bit of measuring - the basic theory is that if it was 10 from your forestay to mast, and the foot of jib is 10, then its a 100% jib, 12 feet a 120 etc.

On the setting of blocks you can draw a pencil line that bisects the angle of the clew, then take a sight along the sheet in front of blocks and see if that lines up with the pencil line you drew. Good starting point for a balance of back and down..
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Post by Banshi »

Its really to big for those winds. Reefing the main will help but a much smaller jib will help a lot more. I used an old main sail I had and cut it down. it barely comes back to the mast. It is pretty useless when the wind drops below 15 but does well when it is over. I put my sheet blocks for my genoa about where you had yours, much more would be to far and the luff would start to belly. Around here judging what sails you are going to need can be tricky as the winds will start out light and can really blow when the sea breeze kicks in. The farther north on the river the more exaggerated it seems to become with long stretches of the river running in the same direction as the wind commonly blows. Reef early and try and find a smaller jib, use the shore line to block the stronger winds as well, it is amazing the difference between the windward side of the river and middle or leeward side. Also take heed of how close you get to shore the St. Johns can be pretty shallow even a hundreds yards from shore. Probably going to get mine back in the water week after next now that the temps have started to drop.
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Post by EmergencyExit »

Banshi wrote:Probably going to get mine back in the water week after next now that the temps have started to drop.
Same here. Looking forward to some cooler temps. August was just too much this year.
Zac Penn
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Post by Zac Penn »

Thanks guys. I will have to measure the foot and see what my percentage is. You just divide the foot by the distance from forestay, multiply by 100 and that is your percentage?

Just to be clear, I will have to sight the clew angle (by this you mean the angle created by the last couple feet of the foot of the sail) then sight the angle from the clew to the forestay, and my sheet should point right in the middle of those two lines to create two equal slices of pie? Sorry for the food reference...I am a visual learner ;)

I know I should have reefed the main and swapped to my storm jib, but I wanted to see what it was like with a big sail and heavier winds.
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CaptainScott
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Post by CaptainScott »

What EE said and roughly what you describe is correct. Picture the jib sheet slicing your sail into two equal pieces of pie. You can move the block on the toe rail for and aft to acheive this basic starting point!

I do not performance sail. However if you were concerned with every little bit of speed out of your boat, fine adjustments to the block positioning on the toe rail can help a lot! Watch the jib and tell tails carefully and slowly point to wind. What you are looking for is when the sail luffs, where does it luff first? At the top? if so move the block forward a little. If the Jib luffs at the bottom first, move the block aft a little! Keep doing this until you get as close to a balance as you can. Then mark the toe rail where the block is for that jib!

As far as your winches go, they are not self tailing winches from the factory so you have to tail the winch yourself or with help. What this means is that you will need to wrap your sheet 3 times clockwise sarting at the bottom of the winch working up with each wrap ensuring the line cleanly wraps the drum. Now when you need to pull the sail in you winch with one hand and hold the bitter end of the sheet pulling firmly to keeping the wraps on the drum straight. Do not pull up or down, just straight back. Whne you loosen the sail, you loosen slowly allowing the line to slide backwards around the drum. You must tend or "tail" the line or it will indeed wrap over itself and bind up!

Hope this helps!

Congrats getting out on the water!!

Scott

PS:
OH yeah, the sheets from the sail go over the top and outside of all life lines and shrouds. then comes back in under the life lines through the block on the toe rail. At that point you can run it aft to the factory cheek block on the combing or just go straight to the winch if nothing is in the way.
Zac Penn
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Post by Zac Penn »

Scott you are awesome! That is a great explanation about how to move the block around for the best balance. I will be sure to do that next time I am out.

Will the block location change in different AOA? IE: reaching, running, close hauled? Or does it not matter as much, other than when you are close hauled?

As for the winch, I was hoping there was a proper way to do it so that I could do it with one hand. Obviously the term "single handing" is not a literal one and really means solo sailing ;) I need to get a tiller tamer or make one so I can let go and adjust sails on my own when I need to.

Here is another question for you guys...
On the bottom mainsheet block do you have the cleats so the line is pulled up to lock it in or pull down to lock it in?
I think on my JY15, I would pull up on the line to release it and pull down to lock it. This seems like it would be easier then having to pull down to release it like it is now. I am guessing I could flip this to however I like correct?
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Post by CaptainScott »

As far as your mainsheet jam cleat, yes, pulling DOWN to release is correct. When you are sailing alone, one had will be on the tiller and the other on the main sheet most likely. Especially in puffy conditions. A normal and simple pulling in on the main sheet will set the sheet in the jam cleat preventing the sail from going back out. A simple flip of the wrist ( well practiced ) will release the mainsheet from the jam cleat without any issues. If you "flip" the set up, any time you grab the main sheet and put pressure on it it will come free. Resetting it will be a bit of a pain. IF you want to flip it, do not make any permanent changes. You will be flipping it back soon enough! LOL!

Scott
Zac Penn
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Post by Zac Penn »

HAHAHA I didn't think about that. I guess I just need to figure out the proper sheet flick so it will unlock easily. I had been bending over to release it and it was a pain. I hadn't thought of flicking it for some reason.
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Post by OutnBacker »

I pretty much did the same thing - too much jib when I didn't think the wind was going to be there. It was. And we screamed. But, oh boy howdy, was it fun. Just as I'd been told, the C-22 stiffens right at 20 degrees of heel, and goes no further. And I might add, even when I was scrambling on leeward side - trying to measure the inches from the rail to the water. All 260lbs of me. It was about 8" on average when the waves didn't splash too high or the trough wasn't out of reach.

As for where to set your leadblocks, here is a pic of a Grumman canoe I modified into a very fast trimaran for camping and sailing by the seat of my pants. Look at the jib sheet and imagine an extension that goes from the clew, straight thru the sail to about 40% to 50% up the luff. That's a good starting point for most jibs. The larger the jib, the further back the leadblock.

http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/OutnB ... 7049004246

John

EDIT: Capt Scott told me that if he is using the 110, which I believe is the stock size for the C-22, he goes straight to the winch from the leadblock. When using the 135, he runs the sheet aft to the cheek blocks, then fwd to the winches. I suspect that the longer foot dictates the run of the sheets.
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