I lost my rudder

surveywaters · Post by **surveywaters** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:21 pm

I just bought a '78 Chrysler 26' and noticed a lack of repsonsiveness at the helm. I have only sailed it in light wind.Well we motored out on a windless day and anchored to let the kids swim so I decided to see what
position the rudder was in. Well, I was certainly surprised when I found only a large bracket and a heavily coroded bolt hanging loosely from one side. So now, I am either in need of a new replacement, a used one in fair shape, or some detailed measurements for a build. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Also, this is the first of many posts for me, glad to have found this site.

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:14 pm

Ouch ! I have a pic of the rudder at this page here

Since EE is dry docked right now I can get you a template this weekend if you need one. Send me a PM or email with an address if that helps.

Also member Amayotte just built a shoal rudder he may have the original left over. Might send him a note, or post on his thread here

Also www.idasailor.com may have a replacement

Hey, welcome aboard !

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:22 pm

WELCOME aboard and sorry to hear about your rudder!! Gotta love these ole' boats!

EE provided the best links for you!

Scott

surveywaters · Post by **surveywaters** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:40 pm

Thanks for the links. I have a real nice schematic of what I believe is the 22' rudder. I would really like an image like this for the 26. But, after looking at Amayotte's thread, I think building one may be way beyond my skills. I have never done any fiber glassing. The rudder on the 22' looks really big, does anyone know if by chance it's the same as the 26?

I did take a good look at this but if I had that kind of money I would have bought a boat that came with a rudder

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:07 pm

The 22 and 26 are different blades. The link I posted is the C26, the 22 diagram is located at this link here

Yep, Ida Sailor doesn't give those blades away ! I have a friend who bought their blade for his Southcoast and says it is a great improvement over the stock one though...

surveywaters · Post by **surveywaters** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:52 am

Does anyone know the general dimensions of the rudder? I need the over all length, width and thickness at the mounting point, I assume it's 1.5" thick. I am planning to mill my own out of UHMW. I can get it at a reasonable price ($30 a square foot) and I believe it would be an ideal material. The sooner I get this the sooner I'll started posting pics, thanks.

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:27 am

If you'll click the email button under my post, and send me a mailing address I can get you a paper template this weekend.

Also I think the original pic link I posted has a grid with the general dimensions on it if that's all you are looking for. Not sure, can't open it from here.

EE

surveywaters · Post by **surveywaters** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:37 am

I sent you an email EE. Do you know how thick it is? The pic is all I need for overall until I get the template. Thanks

sauerleigh · Post by **sauerleigh** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:46 am

The rudder tube is 1.500" in dia. The rudder itself measures about .030 smaller at the outside edges, so 1.500" stock should work without a problem.

surveywaters · Post by **surveywaters** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:42 pm

Thanks! I found a supplier in town with the plastic in stock for $130. 1.5"x18"x42". I believe the jig I am working on will allow me to make the tapers with a router. The only concern I have is that this stuff is so slick it's real hard to sand so I have to get it almost perfect with out sand paper.

Is the top of the rudder groved for the ropes to sit down in and how do the pulls tie to the rudder with out interfering with the bracket? I can't find any pics of this.

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:50 pm

I think I have a pic of how the lines attach to the rudder, will look tonight at home. A diagram is here.

(a hole is drilled thru the rudder sides with a hole from the top as well for the line to go thru. think about installing a deadbolt lock on a door, same thing.)

Need to take EE's rudder off anyway since I chewed it up again with the prop, so I'll get you a template and pics Saturday.

gregcrawford · Post by **gregcrawford** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:08 pm

The HDPE in that thickness will be so heavy you will not be able to retract the rudder with the pull rope. Just something to think about.

The stock rudder floats, but the metal rudder cheeks and shaft will cause it to sink if it falls out of the boat, leaving the rudder reaching skyward on the bottom of the lake. Ask me how I know...

surveywaters · Post by **surveywaters** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:32 pm

I appreciate the input put but lots of users here seem to be real please with the performance of their rudder from Idasailor which is made of HDPE. It's supposed to have a neutral bouyancy. I have decided to go with the HDPE as oposed to the UHMW, because of tensile strength comparisons.

EE that makes sense to me. So the 7/8" hole is for the knot? Now I can picture it working. I just couldn't see a loop around the rudder

Thanks for everyone's input and rapid responses. Please continue to advise and contradict me as I move forward with this.

sauerleigh · Post by **sauerleigh** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:26 pm

The cross hole for the hoisting rope has a SS tube inserted to spread the load from the knot. the tube is .875"OD, .050" wall and 1.387" long, the hole for the rope is 15/32". It would probably be a good idea to duplicate these.

hp18carr · Post by **hp18carr** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:33 pm

Brian

This maybe of interest to you or others, my c26 has a seven bolt rudder. I like the setup, If I ever need to replace it I hope idasailor can accommodate.

Terrence
Wilmington N.C.
Chrysler 26 1980
Pandora (for now)

sauerleigh · Post by **sauerleigh** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:44 am

This is a better design than just the pivot bolt. Over time the bolt acted like a saw my rudder and the round hole had become a sort of "U" shape. I'm modifying my rudder along the same lines of yours Terrance. I think the larger pivot also spreads the loads better along the cheeks. I didn't notice any weld repairs close to the rudder tube in your photos. Mine have been repaired on both sides and I also think I remember seeing the same repair in photos posted by EE.

surveywaters · Post by **surveywaters** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:22 am

The larger hub seems like a much better design. Difficult for me to fabricate however. I wonder if by using a large SS bushing I could atleast some what improve the wear-ability. How does brass stand up to prolonged submersion in fresh water? I can machine brasss bushings much easier than SS. It would be easier to make bushings for the hoisting rope cross holes as well as the pivot point.

sauerleigh · Post by **sauerleigh** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:03 am

Brass would work but you could also make a hub from the same material as the rudder. It's not as though you are working with a rotating shaft, most of the time the rudder will be down anyway, you just don't want too much sloop between the rudder and the steering tube.
I made a 3" OD X 2.750"ID fiberglass bushing and bonded it to the rudder, the hub is 2.735" OD SS with 4 1/4"-20 threaded holes through to fasten to the cheeks.
Some photos http://www.flickr.com/photos/93952888@N ... 226925305/

surveywaters · Post by **surveywaters** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:10 am

That's a great idea. My first thought on it however, is that I am not sure how to make a hole in the rudder with an i.d. just slightly larger than the o.d. of the bushing. If I use a hole saw there will be almost 1/4" difference between them and this stuff doesn't sand well so I couldn't make it oversize and work it down too easily. I don't believe my first attempt at fiberglass should be on a bearing race like you made there. Any thoughts?

BTW, nice work.

surveywaters · Post by **surveywaters** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:25 am

Quick question somewhat related. I am oveerhauling my tiller while this is going on. There are more screws on this thing than wood. There is a large jam cleat above the bracket for the rudder tube as well as a yacht cleat where I want my hand. What is the rudder supposed to have on it? Not necesarily stock, I want to know what works for you guys.

A photo would be nice so I can see placement.

Thanks

LeatherneckPA · Post by **LeatherneckPA** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:47 am

surveywaters wrote:That's a great idea. My first thought on it however, is that I am not sure how to make a hole in the rudder with an i.d. just slightly larger than the o.d. of the bushing.

A common technique in the woodworking world for this problem is to use a router and guide bushing. If you were to use the same size we use for inlay work the two pieces would have a friction fit.

sauerleigh · Post by **sauerleigh** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:50 am

You can always make the hub from brass like you earlier. I would use a drill press if you have one with the hole saw, it'll safer.

John K · Post by **John K** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:08 am

So what can I do to avoid losing my rudder? Mine is in quite good condition, and I just had a brand new stainless cheek and post assembly made, so I certainly don't want to abandon the factory configuration. Did the pivot bolt rust through? The original post said that it was badly corroded, but I'm pretty sure that my bolt is stainless.

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:21 am

John K wrote:So what can I do to avoid losing my rudder?

EE's up line runs to the starboard side of the tiller, and the down line to the port side, and are then tied together under the tiller. Assuming the lines are good, and the knots in the rudder (and under the tiller) are solid, then the rudder shouldn't go far if the center bolt breaks. That's not a likely thing to happen, but obviously it can.

I've worried a bit about the whole rudder post and all going gravity-bye-bye, as (at least on the C26) it is really only held by the tiller bracket and collar. Now that might be a good place for a hole thru the post with a clevis pin to prevent the post from slipping down and away.

Banshi · Post by **Banshi** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:29 am

but I'm pretty sure that my bolt is stainless.

FYI Stainless steel will rust when left submerged in water because of the lack of oxygen in the water.

surveywaters · Post by **surveywaters** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:44 am

The rudder was lost because of a lack of maintenance. The pivot bolt was most likely factory and completely useless. Also, the previous owner told me in order to lower the rudder, the dock hook had to be used, which tells me the lines had been broken for some time. When I bought the boat the rudder was already gone, but the ropes tied around the tiller looked like they were doing something

EE: By your description of how you run your lines, it sounds like there are no cleats (jam or yacht) on the tiller, is this correct?

Leatherneck: That is exactly what I need to do. A guide bushing and jig will work well, I just need a straight bit with 1 1/2" blades on it, sounds expensive, lol.

LeatherneckPA · Post by **LeatherneckPA** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:37 am

surveywaters wrote:Leatherneck: That is exactly what I need to do. A guide bushing and jig will work well, I just need a straight bit with 1 1/2" blades on it, sounds expensive, lol.

I don't know. I used to think that way, and look for the bargains. But I have found that my good tools actually do work better. This bit should do what you need quite nicely. CMT isn't top of the line, but they sure aren't bargain basement either. Still, $35 is a pretty fair price for that quality.

surveywaters · Post by **surveywaters** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:13 pm

Nice, ty.

Just got back from the boat. Got my rudder bracket off

Both plates are bent and cracked. Can I straighten these out or do I need to replace? I know I can weld the cracks but the warping has me a little concerned.

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:03 pm

surveywaters wrote: EE: By your description of how you run your lines, it sounds like there are no cleats (jam or yacht) on the tiller, is this correct?

Correct, the lines are long enough that when the rudder is down I can wrap them around the tiller in a hitch.

Plus since EE is usually wet slipped I tend to keep the pivot bolt a touch tight. It takes a good bit of pull to get the rudder to come up, but that works for me since I don't have any shallow places.

sauerleigh · Post by **sauerleigh** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:35 pm

I just started to rework the cheeks today. The repairs had been welded with a "stick" with lots of buildup. I ground most of the old weld away (one had cracked) and will re-weld it with TIG. I plan to add some 1/8" plate from to rudder tube back. Straightening looks like a job for a real torch, I don't think propane or MAP gas will do it. I won't get back to it until next week but I'll post photos as I go.