Window removed & re-seated on C-22

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Tue May 24, 2011 2:11 pm

Hi All,

Today while we had some sunshine, I removed and re-seated my leaking rear Starboard port/window.

Took all the screws out.

I slipped a small thin screwdriver between the Aluminum window frame and the cabin fiberglass and carefully pried it apart. Yuk, what a mess. The windows frame and Hull needed a lot of cleaning of dirt and old 3M 5200.

I cleaned the Aluminum window frame with a wire brush where the old 3M 5200 was stuck on for dear life in some places. Other places it had failed completely. Then I added a new bead of 3M 5200 after everything was cleaned up and reseated the window, replacing the screws and I cleaned up the 5200 that squeezed out from around the frame inside and out.

I'm going to let it dry for a couple days and then take the garden hose to it and see if it will hold the water out. If it works I'll pull the other 3 windows just because, as they are not leaking... Yet, but they should all be done at the same time if the first windows seals the water out well.

Total time was about 3 hours, for everything. I figure I could do all 3 of the remaining windows in about the same amount of time it took to do this one. I have my technical know how down now so it should go quickly.

I had 1/4" plex to replace the old windows with but the OEM stuff is 1/8" and I don't think the OEM frames would take the 1/4" without damaging them so I left the old windows in, scratches and all, for now.

Thanks
Alan

bryan · Post by **bryan** » Tue May 24, 2011 2:56 pm

Alan, hey good job - looks real nice. I got enough courage to give this a try last year but stopped when the windows weren't coming out easy - I didn't want to bend or break them. Seeing your pics makes me want to try again.

On a related note, I did find a real good video on Youtube.com that details reseating the windows on a boat, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-pD45dghHw

The part where he uses a putty knife to break the seal is the part I need, apparently.

Enjoy

Bryan

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Tue May 24, 2011 3:47 pm

Alan, I was about to suggest the wide putty knife when I saw Bryan already did ! It does lessen the chance of bending the frames, as I learned on the second of EE's portlights..

Good job there !

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Tue May 24, 2011 4:29 pm

Good hint!

Yea, I was worried about that too. Note in my photo number 4 from the top. Hard to see it but by the toe rail you you can see 2 screw drivers. the normal one up against the toe rail, a jeweler sized screw drivers is against the bigger one. I took the jeweler sized one and inserted it all around the frame every inch or so to break the seal. Once I had it loosened that way I used the bigger one on the long edge of the top of the frame. It popped right up and It was easy to remove from there.

Now the putty knife is a much better idea. That would have saved me a great deal of time and worry.

Thanks
Alan

mariner · Post by **mariner** » Tue May 24, 2011 4:47 pm

Alan just a quick thought, i commend you for diving in on this project, it's one that i need to do but i don't feel comfortable doing it just now.

If you reseal with 5200 and the leak is coming from the old gasket holding in the plex can you remove the frame again? Or do you have to? Can the plex be removed from the inside? I guess without having taken one of these apart I'm not sure how the whole thing is built. I have not used 5200 but I hear it's "devil glue" !
I found this link about replacing port lights, I'm wondering if the technique is applicable here?

P.S. there are places that you can get the same gasket material new. I have small leak in my port lights. I believe that the water is coming from the gasket being dried out and brittle. There are just to many projects!

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/nfm_port_lights

mcrandall · Post by **mcrandall** » Tue May 24, 2011 5:20 pm

What do you guys think of using butyl rubber for sealing either the frame, replacing the gasket material, or both?

mariner · Post by **mariner** » Tue May 24, 2011 5:23 pm

mcrandall wrote:What do you guys think of using butyl rubber for sealing either the frame, replacing the gasket material, or both?

I'm in favor of it, however I have no experience with it yet, just based upon some research that I did on the web

Check out the link below

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/nfm_ ... hts&page=4

mcrandall · Post by **mcrandall** » Tue May 24, 2011 5:28 pm

I know what you're talking about Mariner. That was a VERY informative post on using the butyl rubber. I bought a case of the stuff off E-bay for a good price, gonna use it everywhere based on that info. Going to redo ALL of my hardware mountings. Let you know how it works out.

astrorad · Post by **astrorad** » Tue May 24, 2011 5:34 pm

Alan...I was just reading in Don Casey's book," Sailboat Hull & Deck Repair", that polyurethane caulk(3M 5200) and the polysulfide caulks (Thiokol) are not recommended for plastics/portlights.

The polyurethane is extremely tough to get apart later and the polysufides attack the plastic windows.

Casey recommends silicone caulk or the blended polyurethane/silicone called LifeSeal by BoatLife. He states that they have the flexing properties needed as the hull stresses and shrinks and expands in the cold and sun.

I too will be rebedding my portlights this summer.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Tue May 24, 2011 8:46 pm

I did my windows last early this spring. Found it easy to do. I used the sealing tape from Camping World that was discussed on a previous thread. It was quick, went on easy, got a good squash with easy clean up.

One thing I noticed on your pictures, Alan, my screw heads were on the inside of the cabin so the exterior had no holes exposed, and the portion of yours that appears to stick out seated into the cut out opening of the hull on mine. It's possible yours worked out this way because you used the starboard screws on the port side, hence the heads were on the wrong end of the screws.

It's also possible yours is correct since I got my boat partially overhauled by the PO so nothing is to be trusted as original or correct.

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Tue May 24, 2011 9:33 pm

Okay 3 replies in 1 here.

Okay Mariner, you may be right, it could be the seal from the frame to the window. I did put water on the face of the window which makes a small dish when held flat/level. The seal did not leak with that test.

Asteroid, the window sits inside a rubber gasket sitting inside the Aluminum frame. The 3M 5200 does not touch the plexi window in any location. The 3M 5200 is between the Aluminum Frame and the cabin fiberglass hull. The window frame is just that a frame holding the window. The Frame is glued and then screwed to the hull. I did not know that 3M 5200 was bad for plexi. Thank you for the heads up. When I started this project, I thought I was going to do the 5200 to seal the window to the frame. I would have messed it up big time.

Paul, I'm not 100% sure but I am in the 99% sure range the window frames and placement are OEM. All the window frames have been reseated at least 1 time in the life of the boat I am sure of that. So it is possible the frames are wrong but I doubt it. The cabin side of the windows inside has it's own Aluminum window sills which do not quite touch the window frames the window is mounted in.

Yes I also believe it would be easy enough to remove and re-do the whole thing. It is suppose to rain for the next week here so it will be tested real well starting tomorrow. This is why I did only 1 window to try my method out first to see if it is sound.

Man this is fantastic feedback and I really appreciate it. Keep it coming, I use all your knowledge all the time.

Thanks much,
Alan

P.S. I will post my results next week. I will also take a better photo of the plexi window in the rubber gasket held in the frame. Until I had it out in my hand I did not understand the assembly. If you look at photo #4 that is the back side of the window, you can kind of see that the windows is suspended in the frame.

mariner · Post by **mariner** » Wed May 25, 2011 2:39 am

Thanks for the great info ! Looking forward to more photos!

astrorad · Post by **astrorad** » Wed May 25, 2011 4:35 am

Alan...the Casey book didn't say specifically that 5200 hurts plexi....he stated that the other type of caulk called polysulfide/Thiokol would attack the plexi.

I think that Casey was saying that 5200, which is polyurethane, is considered a permanent adhesive, making it undesirable for later removal.

I really like all the pictures that you take of the step by step process. I would do that also if I weren't so doggone lazy...hence my videos...LOL

John K · Post by **John K** » Wed May 25, 2011 5:00 am

I have done this job successfully.

First note, and it may have been mentioned- please mark the location of the frames before removing them. The screw holes are not in a uniform pattern. I marked them pf (port fore), pa (port aft), etc.

I removed the frames with a putty knife as suggested previously. The plexiglass was brittle, and some of the portlights broke as I was removing them. I took a lot of time cleaning the frames with a wire wheel on a drill. Then wiped them down with solvent (I believe it was methyl ethyl ketone). I bedded them into the frames with butyl rubber tape. To do this, I ran the tape into the frames, sticky side to the internal cabin side. I did NOT remove the backing tape at this time (essential). Using the putty knife, I pressed the tape into the inner side of the frames until flat, and good adhesion was assured. I had a local shop cut new portlights out of 3/16" Lexan (much stronger and more flexible than plexi). Again, without removing the backing tape, I then slipped the new portlights into the frames and pressed them firmly against the tape to ensure that when the backing tape is removed, I could slip them in without getting caught up in the tape. Then removed the backing tape, slipped the new portlights into place, making sure to keep them against the outer edge. Once in place, pressed them firmly against the butyl rubber surface. A small amount with try to squeeze out, but I just went around the edges with a putty knife and squeezed it in really tight. There were a couple of areas that seemed to need a little extra gasket, but that's the beauty of butyl tape. You can just tear a little off of the roll and push it into the edges with a putty knife. I rebedded the frames with 3M 4200, because I wasn't confident enough to use something as permanent as 5200. That was over a year ago and it hasn't taken on a drop through the portlights.

This has been mentioned before, but when working with butyl, it helps a lot to cool it down in the refrigerator for a while before use, and try not to do the job in the heat (I'm in Louisiana, and did the job in February). The butyl gets a little too soft to work with when hot, but that is a by-product of it's remarkable sealing properties.

My gaskets were far beyond useable. 34 years in the southern sun had taken it's toll, they were shrunken and brittle, so I had to have a new way to seal them (my leaks were through the gaskets, no the frames). This was a really economical solution that I'm very pleased with.

This is the only photo I seem to have right now. But at least you can see that I was burying the rail and no water is rushing in.

Cheers!

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Wed May 25, 2011 5:25 am

Hi All,
man I'm late here!

One thing to note: Instead of using 3M 5200, I used the 3M 4000.
Couple of reasons. The 3M 5200 is very unforgiving and very stiff. If you mess up and a week later want to redue things, you might find it next to impossible. That leads directly to 3M 4200. Same stuff but more flexible meaning it flexes with the boat and can be removed albeit with some effort. However, given our portlights are exposed to the sun as is at least a portion of the sealant used I went with the 3M 4000. Same as 3M 4200 but with UV protection.

I know I'm the odd man out here on this choice and this is one reason why I did not post my portal repairs. I wanted to make sure it actually worked! LOL! So far so good but given the weather I have not even dipped Lady Jo yet this year!

Scott

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Wed May 25, 2011 6:13 am

Good info, John and Captain Scott (69shark).

I'm happy I only did one portal window so far. I know I used 3M 5200 as that is what I have used on all of my sealing projects for the last 3 years. Yes, the very same tube of 3M 5200.

Now I have removed at least 2 other things I installed with that tube of sealer and yes it was a pain but it was still soft and pliable like fresh silicone that sticks like barnacles to the fiberglass. I had a heck of a time getting it out and not damaging any surfaces.

Now I'm wondering was it 3M 5200 or 3M 4200. I'm going to have to go out and check my garbage can as it sounds like 3M 4200 based on the non-cement like results I've had.

I will do the remaining 3 windows in the 3M 4000 with the UV protection. And I likely will remove the one I just did to match after a quick dumpster dive to check the old label.

It's good you guys spoke up now as I have 3 more larger never used 3M 5200 I got on close out for $0.50 a tube a couple years ago. Thought I was set for the rest of my windows.

I just went out and checked my trash can and it is 3M 5200 I've been using. This also looks like what some prior owner used on the window I removed and remounted yesterday. I also just checked my 2 year old 3M 5200 seal jobs and the ones I re-did for my wiring jobs in the last 2 months. All are still flexible like a new install of silicone old and new alike with 2 of them that have been in the summer Sun for the last 2 years. I must have gotten lucky on this tube of 5200 or something. I had no notion of its mostly permanent nature. I figured it was just a really tough silicone for boats that lasted longer but still gave out in something like 10 years instead of 2 years like normal silicone does.

I love what I learn here. Keep up the good work gang.

Thanks
Alan

Bhacurly · Post by **Bhacurly** » Wed May 25, 2011 9:50 pm

Wish I had tried the Butyl tape trick!

I replaced my windows also, but went with a thicker Lexan that fit without the gasket, and used Silicone alone for the seal. Getting the windows out of the frames is a pain and left the frames spread open,,, Problem was keeping them together and not getting the silicone all over while clamps held the frame snug enough to get it back into the glass cutout...

Untitled by bhacurly, on Flickr

hp18carr · Post by **hp18carr** » Thu May 26, 2011 7:53 am

Not to play favorites, but with Alan's photos and John's description I'm starting to get my mind around this Starboard port/ window business. I do however see a dark cloud on the horizon, my stern port/light (not the small one in the cockpit) sadly one of the largest on a C26 in the past was damaged/busted. The P.O. did a poor fix using what he must have had on hand; the replacment was way too thin and is now the largest leak I'll need to deal with. Not to speak of how much rot has spread through the core around the window.

Terrence
Wilmington N.C.
Chrysler 26' 1980
Pandora (for now)

Capt. Bondo · Post by **Capt. Bondo** » Fri May 27, 2011 4:04 pm

Paul wrote: It's possible yours worked out this way because you used the starboard screws on the port side, hence the heads were on the wrong end of the screws. It's also possible yours is correct since I got my boat partially overhauled by the PO so nothing is to be trusted as original or correct.

I have found that if you use a left handed screw driver on the starboard screws and a right handed screw driver on the Port screws you could avoid this issue all together

Bottoms up!

lecker68 · Post by **lecker68** » Fri May 27, 2011 4:39 pm

the left handed screwdriver is near the finnegan pin and the johnson rod and don't forget to put the summer air in your tires.

Capt. Bondo · Post by **Capt. Bondo** » Fri May 27, 2011 5:08 pm

Also check your muffler bearing, and the headlight fluid

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Fri May 27, 2011 8:31 pm

Rats, my repair seems to be leaking between the frame and the hull.

Time for a do-over.

Thanks
Alan

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Fri May 27, 2011 10:21 pm

Crum, Alan, I know that's disappointing after putting the effort into the job. I wish you better results next time.

And for Capt Bondo & Lecter - I know... My left handed screwdriver has a red handle and the right handed one is green, and those are the SAE screwdrivers. The metrics are color coded differently. But having all those screwdrivers means also having a "boatload" of batteries on hand to make sure they aren't out of power when you need a particular screwdriver.

astrorad · Post by **astrorad** » Sat May 28, 2011 11:20 am

Don't forget to always have a Henway in your tool kit...

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Sat May 28, 2011 2:47 pm

Alan I thought EE's were leaking that way too, but traced it to dirt in the gasket channel..was really surprised that could allow it to leak as much as it did..but if it doesn't seak well it sure will..

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Sat May 28, 2011 2:48 pm

astrorad wrote:Don't forget to always have a Henway in your tool kit...

lol, oh no I'm not going to bite on that one. Besides I have a Henway myself...

lecker68 · Post by **lecker68** » Sat May 28, 2011 6:27 pm

I believe everyone has a henway.

mcrandall · Post by **mcrandall** » Sat May 28, 2011 9:29 pm

My Mom was a Henway in High School! How's that for some trivia!! Only one I've ever known.

Anhinga · Post by **Anhinga** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:28 pm

P.S. there are places that you can get the same gasket material new.

Catalina 25's use the same gasket material and it's still available. When installing, make certain the joint in the gasket is at the top of the frame. If it's on the bottom it will always leak no matter how new or good the seal is.

mariner · Post by **mariner** » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:29 am

Do you have a source that you can share? Thanks!