FIXED KEEL VS SWING KEEL

TAMPABAYRAY · Post by **TAMPABAYRAY** » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:53 pm

IS THERE A CONSIDERABLE DIFFERENCE IN THE PERFORMANCE OF A C22 WITH A FIXED KEEL VS A SWING KEEL. IS ONE BETTER IN LIGHT AIR AS OPPOSED TO HEAVY AIR ? THANKS RAY

Banshi · Post by **Banshi** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:47 am

As a rule the fixed keel will be better in heavy weather and upwind while the swing keel will be better down wind and light air because it can reduce wet surface area by raising the keel. Be fun to test it out in the real world.

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:55 pm

lecker68 · Post by **lecker68** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:42 pm

Welcome aboard Ray and we are a family here and myself I own a 1980 C-26 swing keel if I were going to be blue water cruising I would say fixed keel but for the river and the short off shore trips I like the swing keel.and I have to replace that 30 yr old cable and should replace the winch.

PS we need pictures! and there is only one silly question and that is the one not asked.

skyking · Post by **skyking** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:08 am

Hi, Ray

I do have a fixed keel C-22, which I think Alan has just about covered everything regarding pros & cons.

I will say that launching it is not too bad if the ramp is steep enough

And when pulling the boat I do have to back the truck in until the front tires are at the waters edge...This issue will be a thing of the past as I'm adding a retractable tongue extension to the trailer for the upcoming season.

I currently require about 5 1/2 ' of water to float off the trailer. As for sailing its a wonderful , quiet and smooth. I dont trailer it more than once in the begening of the season to launch and then at the end . I will post a link to my photobucket when I can , I'm at work now and cant get into that here.

Welcome aboard & good luck which ever way to go!!!

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:50 am

Welcome aboard Ray!
As already stated you have advantages and disadvantages to both!

Get some photos up and let us know how you sail! Trailer sailor? Keep her moored? Do any racing? Just cruising?

Scott

Brianw · Post by **Brianw** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:29 am

Alan and fellow sailors. What could I expect to happen to my C26 in the event the swing keel pin broke or even the cable? Starting to loose sleep.

Brian

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:06 am

Brian,
First of all, there is no reason to loose sleep.
Simply check them and see how they are. Once you have assesed the situation you will know where you stand.

If your boat is in the water 24X7 7 days a week, then you likely leave the keel down all the time so if the cable breaks, so what. It'll be a pain next time you haul out but otherwise, you do not NEED to lift your keel. Well, unless you are in the habit of running aground! LOL!

So, maybe you trailer sail. If so, then if your cable breaks while raising or lowering the keel then worse case you get some minor glass damage below but hey, you are there with your trailer so simply haul her and go fix it. Oh wait, if you trailer sail, WHY NOT REPLACE IT NOW! Hey, for a small amount of money, you can have TWO cables made. replace the one you have since you have no idea how old it is and store the extra one aboard for that one day the new one breaks! There! Problem with keel cable solved. Easy peasy.

Oh wait, your concerned with how to get your boat on the trailer with the keel down? Yikes, that could suck. Nah, put a pice of 2X4 or maybe even a roller if cash is available right where the keel would strike the trailer as you pull her on. That will protect the keel and the trailer however you'll likely loose some paint on the keel. When my keel cable broke I swung a line off the port winch, tossed it overboard, ran the bitter end to the bow, around the forstay, and back to the starboard winch. They I pulled the same line under the hull making kind of a sling under the keel. I used the winches and this line to partially raise the keel. When I say partially I mean I literally just took as much weight off the keel as I was comfortable with so when pulling her onto the trailer the full weight of the keel was not dragging. Worked great. Took a while but it worked.

OK, so the keel cable AND the idea of getting her on your trailer is covered.

Now about the keel pin. First of all, I beleive actually PULLING the pin to see the condition is a waste of time unless you are going to replace it. I mean hey, ALL that work to pull the pin? Why risk it, just replace it. So what to do. Remember the pin is a harder metal than the pin brackets. it will likely corrode SLOWER than the brackets themselves. So, next time or while your boat is on the trailer, crawl under her and look up at the keel pin brackets. Are they wasted? Corroded badly? Remeber you'll need to clean them to get a good look! It is not fun, not comfortable and even kind of a pain but well worth the effort. Lastly, are you leaking at the keel pin plates or keel pin? If you say yes to ANY of these then you should consider replacement. If you are simply leaking and the plates are good, drop the keel, clean her all up, inspect the plates in great detail then the pin. If all is good, seal her up and put her back together!

If you boat is moored all the time and you have no trailer then you obviously must schedule a haulout perodically to clean and prep the bottom. I would plan on replacing the keel cable at that time including have a spare made, and check the condition of the keel brackets.

If budget is a concern and you are moored maybe a fellow Chrysler owner could loan a trailer or maybe even assist you and you both can share the experience. Craigs List is a great source of temp help or borrowing a trailer for a nominal fee. Then the only other heavy cost is if you decide to replace the keel pin and or brackets. However it can all be done! When I dropped my keel on Lady Jo I found the process was extremely interesting to every guy I knew! I had my brother-in-law, couple of neighbors, alan ( here ) and myself to assist! OMG! We actually had to much help! Yes it was nice to have everyone there but it was not really necessary. All I'm saying is help is there if you do it yourself. However you must act as the boss to keep things moving! to many guys and it chatting to much becomes an issue! LOL! Oh wait, maybe that is just me! LOL!

Lastly, it is my humble opinion that if you do the listed things there is NO reason to loose sleep. Simply assess your situation and act on what is necessary! Don't panic, just make a list of what you are to do and start it working diligently on each item until you are happy with the results!

FYI I tend to over simplify things. Take a huge task and make many tiny tasks of it. It is the only way my feeble mind can handle things!

Check my link below to see what I did!

Scott

hp18carr · Post by **hp18carr** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:14 am

Brian

Not that it's impossible, but I've never heard of a C26 swing keel pin itself breaking before. Now the cable is another matter. If you are truly losing sleep over it, do what you need to do to get it out of the water. Replacing the cable is not that hard of a project and on the hard you could check the swing keel shoes etc giving you a reasonable idea of the pins condition. If yours is a fresh water boat I'm sure you will have little to lose sleep over in this location. Check out E.E.'s web page, he has a lot of good information on the above and other projects relating to a C26.

Terrence
Wilmington N.C.
Chrysler 26' 1980
Pandora (for now)

lecker68 · Post by **lecker68** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:20 am

where I moor I have to have the keel up as depth is 4 to 5 feet at low tide so far I have not put the keel down and she sails fine. Yes with the keel down she would point better I am going to replace the cable next summer in the water.

Brianw · Post by **Brianw** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:40 am

Thank you all. My boat has always been in fresh water in a Marina. I dived under her this summer and everything looks almost new. I was really amazed. We cleaned the bottom of algae and she looks great. The hull has a relatively fresh coating and everything down there looks clean as a whistle.

I keep the keel down so as not to put extra weight on the cable. I will be pulling it out next spring. Found friend with same boat he is fixing now to pull his. All in all she is fine and sound. I have checked out almost everything you all have posted. I think it's called a plethora of information, I have no leaks,dry as a bone. I put the keel up when we motor around for the day and down when sailing. Must try sailing with keel up, interesting I'm sure.
I have only had her since last summer, and yes I will post pics,promise.

Thanks
Brian

skyking · Post by **skyking** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:32 pm

Ray,

Here is a link to my photo album..

There are some picture of my fixed keel C22 , and what it looks like when sitting on top of the trailer.
I'm not sure what your looking for but here is what I have to offer...

http://s958.photobucket.com/albums/ae61/1961skyking/

Brianw · Post by **Brianw** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:24 pm

First off, I am sorry Ray, I did not welcome you aboard. Having just stepped aboard myself ,I am still overwhelmed and privileged to be in the company of such great and experienced sailors. Why do I feel I am back in high school? I know why, because this is where I will earn my degree in everything that makes our boats what they are and the magic that keeps us young. If these sound like words unprecedented appreciation, they are.

Again welcome aboard Ray
Brian

excavman · Post by **excavman** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:55 am

Now I am totally confused. I just looked at the pictures of Skyking's C-22 fixed keel and it is totally different from the 1977 fixed keel C-22 that I have. When I get a better connection I'll upload some pictures of mine. But, for now a detailed description will have to do. I got out the trusty tape yesterday and did some measuring. My keel is of the 'wing keel' design, it is seven feet long and only sticks down 14 inches from the hull and is 3 to 4 inches thick, looks quite massive. The wings are about mid keel and their overall width is 20 inches or so. The draft as close as I can measure sitting on the trailer is only 28 inches. If you see her sitting on the trailer you would think she had a swing keel.

BTW welcome aboard Ray.

Larry

excavman · Post by **excavman** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:25 pm

I put those keel pictures on my facebook album here's the link:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2 ... d3b35aa0cb

You also might want to browse some of my cedar woodwork, an ongoing project.

Larry

John K · Post by **John K** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:47 pm

Wow man, she's a beauty! Looks like she's had a lot of custom work, including the keel. I've sailed a lot on my buddy's Catalina 22 wing keel. There are definite advantages and disadvantages to having a wing keel. I would love to see how that boat sails. Cheers!

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:25 pm

Wow, Excavman, that is one nice looking, custom, C-22. Is that the galley on the starboard side? If it is please post some more detailed photos of it. I need to redo my grouse OEM Galley and any help in that area is appriciated.

Thanks
Alan

excavman · Post by **excavman** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:03 am

Thanks for the complements guys, it does a soul good to know his work is appreciated.

My biggest question is whether that wing keel is original equipment or a very elaborate, expensive custom job. It is so massive that I can't even imagine the work it would take to accomplish that kind of alteration.

I haven't had her in the water yet but I am getting antsy just thinking about it. Last night I watched about three hours of sailing videos on the sailingtexas.com web site. Saltysailors.com also has a link to that video of "Sailing Around the Americas", it is a great show.

Alan, yes that is the galley on the starboard side near the midship bulkhead. I'll get some better picture when the weather warms up again. It's cold and very windy here in Victroia, TX this morning, not condusive to going outdoors let alone doing any boatwork. I can give you a rundown of how I did the pressure water system, materials, cost etc. if you'd like.

I am trying to get her set up for long trips, living aboad for two weeks to a month. maybe run up the Tombigbee in the spring. Then again, I may run off to Arizona and explore Lake Mead if 'Publisher's Clearing House' ever shows up with my check.

Larry

John K · Post by **John K** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:24 am

I'm fairly certain that the keel is a custom job, and yes, a heck of a job at that. The wing keel was first seen in the mid 80's racing scene, after Chrysler Marine was forced to shut down.

lecker68 · Post by **lecker68** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:04 pm

Larry it looks like you have a C-22 fin Keel which until tonight I was not aware of here is the link to sailboat data
http://www.sailboatdata.com/viewrecord. ... ss_ID=4928

NYCSAILOR · Post by **NYCSAILOR** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:32 pm

Tim,

I have the c-26 fixed keel and now have a trailer now and am thinking of launching her off the trailer...
1) what length extension are you planning?
2) do you laucnh in saltwater?
3) is your trailer alum, galv, or painted steel?
4) how do you rinse your truck and trailer after the launch?

would love to have a trailer lauching thread on all these best practices in advance of the coming ( NE) sailing laucnhing season

excavman · Post by **excavman** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:16 pm

Hey guys, I knew I had read this somewhere. It's on the Chrysler Sailing Association web site, and I quote -----

"Specifications
Source: Chrysler Brochure, 1977

GENERAL: Chrysler's outstanding new 22' trailerable family sailer, sets a new standard for versatility and performance in small cruiser-racers: She sails with amazing stability--a result of her wide 7'9" beam, 3000-lb. displacement and 725-lb. swing keel (Also available with a fixed keel, 1010-lb.). Safety for families and racers include foot-gripping deck surfaces, self-bailing cockpit, self-righting capability and foam floatation. She's just right for a family of five, a racing crew of 2-3, or the single-hander."

That might not have anything to do with my 'Wing Keel' as it may be totally custom.

Larry

lecker68 · Post by **lecker68** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:33 pm

The fin keel was an option and until I went digging did not know it existed but it is there on sailboatdata.com if you search with just Chrysler then you get all the models and when you click on c-22 it gives 3 models C-22SK, C-22 FK and C-22 FK TM which is the fin keel.

excavman · Post by **excavman** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:11 am

Alan,

In reference to your question about the galley here's a link to an album with several pictures of it.

http://s1121.photobucket.com/albums/l501/excavman/

I did the swing out table so it can be used several ways. It would be better if the works were made of metal instead of wood.

Larry

mcrandall · Post by **mcrandall** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:07 am

Nice job, Larry!!!!

Did you cut iout the bilge section where your cabinets are for the sink? Also, in the flooring photo it looks like slide-up doors along the wall--I assume those are on the starboard side, yes? Did you cut out the flotation foam that was in there and make storage out of it?

A couple of us (Bill and I for sure) are removing that foam on the starboard side due to water-logging. This looks like a very dressed up way to make use of the space.

What do you think Bill? (papax)

excavman · Post by **excavman** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:15 pm

The cabinettes were already installed when I bought her, they go all the way back, lots of room. I just dolled them up some. All the foam stuff was already gone, I just made slideup doors for the cubbyholes. There are two on port side and one starboard. All together there is a ton of storage available but I am sure it will fill up quickly, Murphy's Law.

skyking · Post by **skyking** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:18 pm

Nice looking woodwork Larry....

I cant wait for our weather to get better so that I can get to work on some projects...

NYCSAILOR · Post by **NYCSAILOR** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:22 am

very nice... it is really a custom yacht looking job... you just want to sail her and never return...

not to be picky, but I think those camping propane tanks should be stored in the lazerette... and keep an eye on them for rust...

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:40 am

excavman wrote:Alan,

In reference to your question about the galley here's a link to an album with several pictures of it.

http://s1121.photobucket.com/albums/l501/excavman/

I did the swing out table so it can be used several ways. It would be better if the works were made of metal instead of wood.

Larry

WOW!
Miss a few days and I lose site of good stuff!
That wood working is very nice!

Your interior loks fabulous!
Nice job!

Scott

Bhacurly · Post by **Bhacurly** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:13 pm

Ditto the WOW!

That looks really nice Larry. Did you do the rails on the deck also?

And, I think I need to show my 1st mate the way you did the "arch." That may be a doable option in the project boat to leave out the bulkheads.

As always guys, thanks for posting the picts!

Billy

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