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Last edited by Monte7979 on Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Hi Everyone;
I know this is a stale-dated post, but I thought I'd revive it in lieu of starting a new one.
I would be interested as well in recommendations for used/new sail shops. Smiley has the original Vector sails from 1975. I have a genoa and roller-furler to install one day soon, but will be looking for a decent main and perhaps a gennaker in the off season.
Cheers!
Archy
I know this is a stale-dated post, but I thought I'd revive it in lieu of starting a new one.
I would be interested as well in recommendations for used/new sail shops. Smiley has the original Vector sails from 1975. I have a genoa and roller-furler to install one day soon, but will be looking for a decent main and perhaps a gennaker in the off season.
Cheers!
Archy
C22 Smiley 
Archy,
The Chrysler Sailing Association website has a link to a place that still makes sails for the Chrysler boats. Here is the excerpt from the page http://chryslersailing.lizards.net/sail ... twant.html.
Chrysler Sails for Sale
Year:
Location: Florida
Features: Super Sailmakers has been making a relatively large number of Chrysler sails each year for the last 15 years or so, and we understand about the scarcity of sailmakers for Chrysler sailboats. We are happy to assist the Chrysler sailing community.
The sails listed below are crafted by Super Sailmakers. Super Sailmakers are also the Florida area's Doyle and Hood loft.
C-13 Pirateer Main $372
C-13Pirateer Jib $163
C-15 Man-O-War $369
C-15 Mutineer Main $369
C-15 Mutineer Jib $201
C-18 Buccaneer Main $395
C-18 Buccaneer Jib $235
C-20 Main (1 reef) - Call for Price
C-20 Genoa (110%) - Call for Price
C-22 Main (1 reef) $624
C-22 Genoa (110%) $467
C-26 Main (1 reef) $734
C-26 Genoa (110%) $575
Prices are for white sails. Colors are available at additional cost. Shipping not included. Prices may change -- check http://www.SuperSailmakers.com for latest pricing.
Price: See above
Contact: Bob Meagher, Super Sailmakers
Phone: 800-541-7601
E-mail: Bob3@Sail-Depot.com
Photo:[/url]
The Chrysler Sailing Association website has a link to a place that still makes sails for the Chrysler boats. Here is the excerpt from the page http://chryslersailing.lizards.net/sail ... twant.html.
Chrysler Sails for Sale
Year:
Location: Florida
Features: Super Sailmakers has been making a relatively large number of Chrysler sails each year for the last 15 years or so, and we understand about the scarcity of sailmakers for Chrysler sailboats. We are happy to assist the Chrysler sailing community.
The sails listed below are crafted by Super Sailmakers. Super Sailmakers are also the Florida area's Doyle and Hood loft.
C-13 Pirateer Main $372
C-13Pirateer Jib $163
C-15 Man-O-War $369
C-15 Mutineer Main $369
C-15 Mutineer Jib $201
C-18 Buccaneer Main $395
C-18 Buccaneer Jib $235
C-20 Main (1 reef) - Call for Price
C-20 Genoa (110%) - Call for Price
C-22 Main (1 reef) $624
C-22 Genoa (110%) $467
C-26 Main (1 reef) $734
C-26 Genoa (110%) $575
Prices are for white sails. Colors are available at additional cost. Shipping not included. Prices may change -- check http://www.SuperSailmakers.com for latest pricing.
Price: See above
Contact: Bob Meagher, Super Sailmakers
Phone: 800-541-7601
E-mail: Bob3@Sail-Depot.com
Photo:[/url]
Lee Hoeppner
Boat: C-15 Man-o-War
Name: Sea'chele
Year: Pre-1973
Boat: C-15 Man-o-War
Name: Sea'chele
Year: Pre-1973
Those prices are from several years ago.
I ended up working with Bill James at AirForce Sails to get a new working canvas. When AirForce went BOOM in the Sailnet blowup several years back, Bill formed a new company, FXSails, and he's continued to be my supplier of choice. Prices were competitive with or lower than Cruising Direct, and the cloth was a grade above what CD typically quotes and uses.
Windward came to me with a main that was pretty sorry, and a less-than-full-hoist 140 with too much belly. I purchased a dacron main and later a RF 150% genny from AirForce while Bill was there. I later purchased a reaching asym, a Pentex maxi-roach main and a 153% Pentex RF genny from FxSails. Apart from the high quality, Bill's been a great guy to deal with. Bill's sold at least 12 sails to six different friends of mine, so apparently my positive experience is shared.
No matter which loft you work with, it's crucial that you measure your boat's rig. You cannot trust that your boat matches the published specs. All the web-order lofts have measurement forms available online. Download one or two to see what kinds of measurements they need, then go measure 'em.
I purchased the main in early 2003. I got a loose foot, two full upper battens, two sets of deep (48" and 96") reef points, a cunningham and a large roach. After more than 300 days sailing, some in extremely high winds, the sail is still in great shape.
I did have Bill modify it to add a third set of reef points last year. While I seldom need them, the C26 is a bit tender, and on a half dozen or so days a year the 3rd reef means that rather than playing the double-reefed main constantly and still getting flattened, I can "relax" and enjoy the high winds. Moreover, my wife and son are less than pleased when we suddenly get slammed hard enough to ship water in the cockpit, and the third reef means that doesn't happen. Usually they just don't come out when it's blowing like that, but sometimes on the way back from a winter overnight we find those conditions, and I just hate to miss sailing in them.
The dacron 150% I got in early 20004 is still in great shape, and furls down well for heavier air, but in order to be durable the cloth is too heavy for the days I really need a 150. A 130 would not have cost much speed in light air, would need to be furled less frequently, and could be furled smaller before the shape got too nasty to be acceptable.
The Pentex sails are a real treat. I got them for racing and lighter air, and have been spoiled by the wonderful shape of the main. I did not think I'd like the fairly flat cut, but they trim much better than the dacron sails, let me point higher and because they don't stretch much they need less retrimming as the wind speed varies. In conjunction with the traveler, boomkicker and adjustable fairleads, they've made a huge difference in the boat. Only down side may be durability, especially if you reef the main much, although they're still lovely 18 months later.
The main is an unusual size, and I'd recommend getting one made for your boat. You have more leeway on the headsail, and might find something reasonable used from BaconSails.com, Atlantic Sailtraders (UsedSails.com) or SecondWindSails.com. That's also a great way to fill in your inventory with a heavy air headsail without spending much.
Most people don't change RF headsails much. I'm a little weird. I purchased a little-used original Vector 110 and converted it to roller furling. I need to do some fine tuning on the luff so that it will keep better shape when furled, but it gets used a fair bit in the winter as well. I also picked up a used storm jib for a much larger boat, probably around 75 sq ft with #6 luff tape for my furler for about $120, and have used it quite a bit in the winter. I still need an actual storm jib, ideally 30-40 sq ft, and will either get a Gale Sail or just rig a removable solent stay and purchase a hank-on, possibly used.
If I were to start over with sails for Windward, for how and where I sail (which over the next couple of years will also include Pamlico Sound, the Chesapeake and lakes Huron, St. Clair and Erie) and focusing on a small number of durable sails rather than a large inventory and racing, I'd get
=> A maxi-roach (not quite hitting the backstay), loose footed main, probably high grade 5.6 oz or so dacron with two full upper battens, cunningham, a couple of reef points at 40"-48" each, and a third set of reef points that will bring the head of the sail to around the spreaders. I say Dacron for durability, but in my heart of hearts I'd rather get a radial cut with a good cruising laminate and just live with having to replace it sooner.
=> An all purpose roller furling genny about 130%-135%, maybe crosscut dacron or maybe a radial cruising laminate, cut fairly flat with a clew height around 12" - 15" above the lifelines, with a light UV cover and a luff pad of foam strips (not a continuous width of foam, which for me has developed a permanent curve).
=> Assuming I was not planning to add a solent stay, a Gale Sail (fits over the furled headsail) of 35 - 50 sq ft. I'd stay on the small end if I planned to get a smaller working jib at some stage.
=> An all purpose asymmetric spinnaker, cut so I can close reach in light air and sail to around 135 - 145.
=> If I were smart, I'd stop there. I'm not, though, and ignoring my "minimal inventory" thing I'd next add a light, radial cut laminate 155% for light air, with a light UV cover but no luff pad. After that I'd consider something sturdy with a high clew somewhere around 85% - 100%.
Too much information, huh?
Windward came to me with a main that was pretty sorry, and a less-than-full-hoist 140 with too much belly. I purchased a dacron main and later a RF 150% genny from AirForce while Bill was there. I later purchased a reaching asym, a Pentex maxi-roach main and a 153% Pentex RF genny from FxSails. Apart from the high quality, Bill's been a great guy to deal with. Bill's sold at least 12 sails to six different friends of mine, so apparently my positive experience is shared.
No matter which loft you work with, it's crucial that you measure your boat's rig. You cannot trust that your boat matches the published specs. All the web-order lofts have measurement forms available online. Download one or two to see what kinds of measurements they need, then go measure 'em.
I purchased the main in early 2003. I got a loose foot, two full upper battens, two sets of deep (48" and 96") reef points, a cunningham and a large roach. After more than 300 days sailing, some in extremely high winds, the sail is still in great shape.
I did have Bill modify it to add a third set of reef points last year. While I seldom need them, the C26 is a bit tender, and on a half dozen or so days a year the 3rd reef means that rather than playing the double-reefed main constantly and still getting flattened, I can "relax" and enjoy the high winds. Moreover, my wife and son are less than pleased when we suddenly get slammed hard enough to ship water in the cockpit, and the third reef means that doesn't happen. Usually they just don't come out when it's blowing like that, but sometimes on the way back from a winter overnight we find those conditions, and I just hate to miss sailing in them.
The dacron 150% I got in early 20004 is still in great shape, and furls down well for heavier air, but in order to be durable the cloth is too heavy for the days I really need a 150. A 130 would not have cost much speed in light air, would need to be furled less frequently, and could be furled smaller before the shape got too nasty to be acceptable.
The Pentex sails are a real treat. I got them for racing and lighter air, and have been spoiled by the wonderful shape of the main. I did not think I'd like the fairly flat cut, but they trim much better than the dacron sails, let me point higher and because they don't stretch much they need less retrimming as the wind speed varies. In conjunction with the traveler, boomkicker and adjustable fairleads, they've made a huge difference in the boat. Only down side may be durability, especially if you reef the main much, although they're still lovely 18 months later.
The main is an unusual size, and I'd recommend getting one made for your boat. You have more leeway on the headsail, and might find something reasonable used from BaconSails.com, Atlantic Sailtraders (UsedSails.com) or SecondWindSails.com. That's also a great way to fill in your inventory with a heavy air headsail without spending much.
Most people don't change RF headsails much. I'm a little weird. I purchased a little-used original Vector 110 and converted it to roller furling. I need to do some fine tuning on the luff so that it will keep better shape when furled, but it gets used a fair bit in the winter as well. I also picked up a used storm jib for a much larger boat, probably around 75 sq ft with #6 luff tape for my furler for about $120, and have used it quite a bit in the winter. I still need an actual storm jib, ideally 30-40 sq ft, and will either get a Gale Sail or just rig a removable solent stay and purchase a hank-on, possibly used.
If I were to start over with sails for Windward, for how and where I sail (which over the next couple of years will also include Pamlico Sound, the Chesapeake and lakes Huron, St. Clair and Erie) and focusing on a small number of durable sails rather than a large inventory and racing, I'd get
=> A maxi-roach (not quite hitting the backstay), loose footed main, probably high grade 5.6 oz or so dacron with two full upper battens, cunningham, a couple of reef points at 40"-48" each, and a third set of reef points that will bring the head of the sail to around the spreaders. I say Dacron for durability, but in my heart of hearts I'd rather get a radial cut with a good cruising laminate and just live with having to replace it sooner.
=> An all purpose roller furling genny about 130%-135%, maybe crosscut dacron or maybe a radial cruising laminate, cut fairly flat with a clew height around 12" - 15" above the lifelines, with a light UV cover and a luff pad of foam strips (not a continuous width of foam, which for me has developed a permanent curve).
=> Assuming I was not planning to add a solent stay, a Gale Sail (fits over the furled headsail) of 35 - 50 sq ft. I'd stay on the small end if I planned to get a smaller working jib at some stage.
=> An all purpose asymmetric spinnaker, cut so I can close reach in light air and sail to around 135 - 145.
=> If I were smart, I'd stop there. I'm not, though, and ignoring my "minimal inventory" thing I'd next add a light, radial cut laminate 155% for light air, with a light UV cover but no luff pad. After that I'd consider something sturdy with a high clew somewhere around 85% - 100%.
Too much information, huh?
Jeff
s/v Windward
1978 C-26 #481
http://www.lizards.net
http://www.sv-windward.com
http://www.chryslersailing.com
s/v Windward
1978 C-26 #481
http://www.lizards.net
http://www.sv-windward.com
http://www.chryslersailing.com
Monte, back to your actual question...
You mention local and near-off shore sailing. Where do you sail? What are the winds like? Do you go out pretty much whenever you want, regardless of the breeze, or are you willing to sit it out when it's blowing hard or motor in really light air? Will you weekend (or longer) cruise enough that heavy air might creep up on you? Are you willing to drop the dollars on a furler?
Not knowing all those things, I'd say:
Not knowing all those things, I'd say:
a dacron, large roach, loose-footed main with two full upper battens and a couple of deep reefs (15-16% of the luff length)
- an all purpose furling genoa around 120-135% (bigger or smaller depending upon your "normal" wind range) with a decent furler
- a small heavy air headsail (a used one to keep $ down, or a sleeved gale sail so that you can easily use it if things blow up suddenly when you're out).
- Work out a whisker pole for downwind in light air (I improvised one cheaply out of PVC a few years back)
- Get your reefing, furling and fairlead setup dialed in.
- Adding a boom kicker and simple lazy jacks will make it much easier to handle and reef the main.
- Sail this setup for a year or so, then figure out if there are gaps you want to address.
- Check FxSails.com, CruisingDirect.com and maybe others to get a rough idea of what things cost
- Download a measure form or two, then measure your rig
- Figure out your intended normal and maximal sailing conditions
- Take advantage of the other opinions you'll get here and from local sailors, especially from other C22 sailors. Remember that your FK version may stand up to a bit more canvas than we swingers can comfortably carry.
- Call a supplier or two, discuss your sailing style, conditions and goals with them, see what they recommend (and why... their recommendations may be completely different, and since they do this for a living you want the benefit of their expertise) and get some prices.
- There may be a price break toward year end, or if you purchase a couple of sails at once. Don't be afraid to ask... worst they can say is "no"
- Go do it
Jeff
s/v Windward
1978 C-26 #481
http://www.lizards.net
http://www.sv-windward.com
http://www.chryslersailing.com
s/v Windward
1978 C-26 #481
http://www.lizards.net
http://www.sv-windward.com
http://www.chryslersailing.com
-
EmergencyExit
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2956
- Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:02 pm
- Location: Mississippi Gulf Coast
Great detailed posts, Jeff, thanks - As far as "too much information", we both know there is no such thing ! Maybe not enough databases, but never too much info
Haven't had time to add the lastest on EE to her site - plus am moving it to a web server, BellSouth limits you to 10Mb, and I'm bumping it at about 9.8 now, so not much room left.
Down to the bottom job, and the keel cleaning + cable, and we launch again.
Beau
Haven't had time to add the lastest on EE to her site - plus am moving it to a web server, BellSouth limits you to 10Mb, and I'm bumping it at about 9.8 now, so not much room left.
Down to the bottom job, and the keel cleaning + cable, and we launch again.
Beau
-
rjbranch
headsail
I came to this thread late, but thought I would post a recommendation I have found works well on the C-22. Most sailmakers want to build 130 or bigger headsails for rolller furling. Problem is the C-22 really is not a stiff boat and needs to shorten pretty quickly. A number of years back (sorry this is going to go to the late 70's and early 80's) I raced a Catalina 27 in a very active (100 plus boats) one design fleet in Detroit. We were hosting the Nationals and Watts Sailmakers made our boat their factory development boat. Lake St Clair that Detroit sits on is a very light air area, but we are a shallow lake and get really steep chops so you need power. We were allowed to carry only 3 headsails. The number one and two were 170 and 150% genoas but then everyone went to either a working jib... no power at all, or a 130% genoa but they were grossely overpowered in winds over 20 knots even with reefs.
What Watts developed has turned out to be an excellent sail that I have used on every boat since including a Merit 25, an ODay 28, and a 23 ft high speed trimaran project ... bout as big a span in weight and stability as you can get. I have used it on my C-22 and it has worked out very well there also. It is a full hoist 120% genoa. I has full hoist for power in chop, but barely more overlap than a working jib and depowers the boat nicely. It really works well with reefed mains because you are still getting the full drive of the full hoist leading edge and can fine tune the helm with the main. Pointing is outstanding. Every boat I have used it on has shown it in raceing conditions to be a giant killer sail. On the trimaran project we used it as the number one jib because the aparent winds build so quickly on tri's. It also roller furls very well. It gives a really nicely balance d rig on the C-22 when reefed. If I'm overpowered with the sail and full main I generally put a single reef in first. If I'm gonna be out all day and know its gonna blow I'll put in 2 reefs before I leave the dock. But if I'm out and have one in and don't want to tuck the second, roller furling the sail down to the point it is full hoist with the reefed main provides a very nicely balanced combination as well.
Watts of course is long gone but I have been able to convice other sailmakers to build me the sail. North did all my other racing sails after Watts went away and they have done the sail. On the C-22 I had one of the local sailmakers build the sail after refusing his recommendation that I really wanted a short hoist 130 on a furler. It would not have been anywhere near as good a combination as the 120. The interesting thing is because of the full hoist luff it is quite a good light air sail. And because it has a shorter leach it is a very good zero wind sail. When racing we would in zero go to it with light sheets. Even though it was heavier cloth is always worked. In a boat that could be made to heel with crew weight like the c-22 (I"m thinking of the Merit 25) it was dynamite in zero. On the tri we could use it in the river I live on in absolute zero wind to take the river's current to get 2 knots of wind, build that with the boats speed to 5 knots and turn and carry the speed upstream. Bizare stuff that happens with multis... hate sailing the things though, that's why I have a C-22 now. Something to sail on the river that I don't have to tack every 20 seconds..
Bob Branch
What Watts developed has turned out to be an excellent sail that I have used on every boat since including a Merit 25, an ODay 28, and a 23 ft high speed trimaran project ... bout as big a span in weight and stability as you can get. I have used it on my C-22 and it has worked out very well there also. It is a full hoist 120% genoa. I has full hoist for power in chop, but barely more overlap than a working jib and depowers the boat nicely. It really works well with reefed mains because you are still getting the full drive of the full hoist leading edge and can fine tune the helm with the main. Pointing is outstanding. Every boat I have used it on has shown it in raceing conditions to be a giant killer sail. On the trimaran project we used it as the number one jib because the aparent winds build so quickly on tri's. It also roller furls very well. It gives a really nicely balance d rig on the C-22 when reefed. If I'm overpowered with the sail and full main I generally put a single reef in first. If I'm gonna be out all day and know its gonna blow I'll put in 2 reefs before I leave the dock. But if I'm out and have one in and don't want to tuck the second, roller furling the sail down to the point it is full hoist with the reefed main provides a very nicely balanced combination as well.
Watts of course is long gone but I have been able to convice other sailmakers to build me the sail. North did all my other racing sails after Watts went away and they have done the sail. On the C-22 I had one of the local sailmakers build the sail after refusing his recommendation that I really wanted a short hoist 130 on a furler. It would not have been anywhere near as good a combination as the 120. The interesting thing is because of the full hoist luff it is quite a good light air sail. And because it has a shorter leach it is a very good zero wind sail. When racing we would in zero go to it with light sheets. Even though it was heavier cloth is always worked. In a boat that could be made to heel with crew weight like the c-22 (I"m thinking of the Merit 25) it was dynamite in zero. On the tri we could use it in the river I live on in absolute zero wind to take the river's current to get 2 knots of wind, build that with the boats speed to 5 knots and turn and carry the speed upstream. Bizare stuff that happens with multis... hate sailing the things though, that's why I have a C-22 now. Something to sail on the river that I don't have to tack every 20 seconds..
Bob Branch
