First sails on the C-22: some thoughts and questions

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ChrisC
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First sails on the C-22: some thoughts and questions

Postby ChrisC » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:18 pm

For those who want to get to the substance, there are some questions at the end of this post. javascript:emoticon(':)')

Well, got my boat in the water, the mast up, and to its slip on the lake. We raised the mast while the boat was on the water, which definitely made it more difficult and time consuming. But it was a choice we made given other circumstances and challenges. And we have actually sailed it. The first day we went out the wind was probably around 15 kts, perhaps a bit more. It was a difficult situation at first. I've done a lot of sailing, most of it on the ocean, in many places; but it's been about 8 years since I've been on a sailboat. A little rusty. But in the wind and white caps, I was surprised at how much the boat pitched and bobbed--I thought it would be steadier given its displacement--and I certainly didn't have my sea legs under me. The jib wasn't secure enough and started raising itself. With my inexperienced crew (wife, who knows how to sail, but it's been awhile and she has forgotten much, and 15 year-old step daughter who has never sailed), we returned to marina, stowed the jib and went out with main only. Turned into a nice sail.

Our second sail was great, in probably about 6-9 kts, with main and standard jib. I am starting to get to know the boat . It felt good and moved well on mostly close and beam reaches. But I got to play with close-hauled a bit, too.

Third sail, once the wind came up, was very enjoyable. Wind probably around 5-7 kts. Even with such a light wind the boat moved well. Lots of close-hauled sailing.

We went out 2 other times, but it was dead calm, and so we swam instead.

Impressions: the boat moves well and is more nimble than I had imagined.

It points surprising well, able to take it quite close to the wind--I mean it begins to lose power but most boats don't seem to do that well, able to keep decent headway even when pinching.

The deck is difficult and awkward for me and my crew--lack of convenient handholds, the life lines seem low, awkward getting back to the cockpit. Maybe as I regain my balance that will improve.

Yesterday, when the wind was still very light, it managed to move. But after it came up to maybe 5 knots, the boat came alive.

Overall, it seems a good boat. I think I will have many good sails.

Questions:
    That tiller is really, really long, almost the length of the cockpit. It's difficult to move around the cockpit because of it, and my crew is constantly getting probed by it. I'm assuming it's original equipment or original specs. Is that much leverage really necessary? Can I shorten it?

    The boat lists to starboard when at rest in its slip. I saw on a post from years ago that this is normal. Is it? Why? Should I be worried?

    The Genoa: I've only used the standard (100%) jib so far, as I haven't wanted to be overpowered and have to make a jib change so early on with still getting to know the boat. At around 8 knots the boat seems to be powered up quite well, and heeling at a good angle with the standard jib. In other (heavier) boats I would still be using the genoa at this point. My initial impression on the C-22 is that it's probably too much above 8 knots, certainly above 10 kts. True? What is your experience?

    The song of the keel cable!! The hum actually seems to show up when the sails are trimmed well. Is there anyway to eliminate it (though it's sort of strangely comforting)?

    How deep do you lower your keel? I've got 2 rounds remaining on the crank drum, as the previous owner instructed me. Should I let it down all the way? Is there an advantage to doing so?

    The keel sometimes knocks against the hull when waves or wakes rock the boat--is this all right?

    Has anybody led their halyards back? Was this an improvement?

    We still have the hank-on jib (I have little experience with hanked-on jibs). I'm experimenting with different ways of securing it as we leave the marina. Any suggestions? Has anybody installed a roller-furler and was it worth it?

    Thanks for any all all comments and for tolerating my questions.
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." --Wind in the Willows

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astrorad
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Postby astrorad » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:49 pm

The list to starboard is usually due to waterlogged foam flotation on the starboard side of the boat. Some folks cut the settee open and remove the foam...I removed the metal plugs that cover the holes where the foam was injected and used a 1/2 inch EMT thinwall conduit to remove cores of the foam. Next I inserted a wooden dowel to use as a dipstick gauge to see how high the water level was in my foam. I drilled a 5/16 inch hole in the lowest spot of the side of the settee near the cabin floor. Over a 5 year period 95% of the water evaporated out and/or drained out that small side hole.
If you still have the sliding galley in the boat that also can add to the unbalance toward starboard. You could add some counterbalancing weight to the port side of the boat.
As for the keel position, the manual states that it should be lowered to an approximately 60 degree angle I believe. You don't want it lowered all the way with a slack winch cable...that could lead to the keel slamming the forward part of the keel trunk if the boat is hobby horsing in wavy conditions.
I understand, from other members, that the cable hum is normal and there isn't much to be done to eliminate it. Hopefully others will join in with their info.
Bill

ChrisC
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Postby ChrisC » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:51 pm

Thanks for your comments. As usual, they are very thorough. Thanks.

I will probably remove the galley after this season.
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." --Wind in the Willows

Reality
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Postby Reality » Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:53 am

2nd year on my C22. This year I brought the halyards to the cockpit and have clutches. GREAT improvement, but not cheap. I sail Green Bay and we get some big winds. I seldom use the 110 genoa. Best foresail is a jib I got on ebay that's about 80%. I reef my main most of the time.

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Guster
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Postby Guster » Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:10 am

Tiller length: When we rebuilt our rudder assembly we made a new tiller handle. I don't know the exact length, but we did shorten it from the original. Overall it is an improvement.

The song of the Keel Cable! Yes it is comforting. Like most owners I pondered how to quiet it. Before I came up with a solution I started to like the hum.

Keel depth: As Bill said above. I lower it all the way and then give it a crank or two up to tension the cable.

The keel may knock around a little, even with the cable under load. After rebuilding my keel brackets and adding some UHMW guides on the top of the keel I have not had any knocking.

Halyards to cockpit? I guess it would come down to personal preference. They would be nice, but I don't mind going forward to the mast.

Hank on jib? I love it! When it's time to reduce sail, and throw the jib up it makes me feel like a real sailor. For securing when not under sail, I just bunch it up on the bow pulpit and use a bungee across the rear legs of the pulpit to hold it in place.
70's Barnett Butterfly "Blue Jean"
1976 C-22

ChrisC
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Postby ChrisC » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:30 pm

Reality, thanks for your comments on sails and wind. yes, she does seem a bit tender. If i go out tomorrow, there may be some stronger wind and few choices made. I'll report back if its a "learning experience."

Guster, Thanks for all the practicalities. I think I will find a shorter tiller--it just seems too long and awkward as is. Thanks fort he input on the other matters as well. With the keel cable I get to imagine a pod of whales is swimming with me. Pretty good for a lake!.
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." --Wind in the Willows

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CaptainScott
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Postby CaptainScott » Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:32 am

OK, running on very little sleep here so I kind of skimmed the questions and I see a lot have been answered!


Shorten tiller, can be done at the expense of tiller pressure on the skipper.

Starboard listing? look for water logged foam under starboard settee. I counter with battery to port!

Jib/Genny? I ran 110% most of the time. 15kts and above she became overpowered unless I shorten sail

Keel cable hum? I thought it was a knot meter! LOL! Well, I used a gps and learned the tune and speed! I could lessen it a bit by slightly raising the keel and tension the cable. I also learned to like the hum.


I always lowered the keel all the way until slack , then took out the slack and a tad more. That is unless I was in a full run trying to catch someone like . . .Alan . . . . then I'd crank it up for less drag! SSSSH! I do not performance sail! LOL!

Yeah, swing keels do that at times. again a bit of tension on the cable helps. Rubber stoppers help too

Halyards run aft? Yes. Worth it? Yes. Especially single handing!

Roller furling, if in the budget is worth its weight in gold for me. ESPECIALLY single handed sailing! Granted it comes at a cost. Lady Jo II was equipped with roller furling and I loved it!!!


You also had mentioned the boat hobby horsing a bit. Yes. They do. Especially at this size boat. It can be countered somewhat by moving as much weight low and centered in the boat. A big 4stroke OB on the stern and a 10 lb anchor and chain hanging on the bow exasperates the issue.
Sometimes you can do little. Like the OB motor. Othertimes, battery location, stored water, and anchor location can help!


Hope this helps!
Scott

jsa
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Postby jsa » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:53 am

May I ask, how much did installing a roller furler set you back? Ballpark?

I also really like the idea of running the halyards to the cockpit.

I've only tried her solo once and went out with the main only. I couldn't figure out how I would get the jib up solo. When I let go of the tiller she rounds up pretty quickly. Once she looses speed she tends to start falling off of the wind. I didn't feel like I could keep her into the wind long enough to hoist the jib.

Has anyone had any luck with a self steering device, such as the tiller tamer?

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CaptainScott
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Postby CaptainScott » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:44 am

Tiller tamer is the answer.
Very simple device.

Also a tiller pilot at much more cost is very cool!


I restore Chryslers and picked up the parts for roller furling along with a purchase of the boats I've purchased. Previous owner had it but no idea how to use it so I moved it to my "keeper" boat.



FYI, without a tamer . . . .
I also had a nice deck back for my jib. ( not necessary but convenient! )
I would have my jib hanked to the forstay and in the bag. Take bag off and bungee the jib to the foredeck BEFORE leaving the dock. Run sheets as necessary.

While sailing under main alone I could head up into irons. dash to bow and pop the bungee or two off the flaked jib on the deck. Remember it is hanked on already and the halyard is hooked on the head of the sail AND run aft.

Now zip back to cockpit. back wind the main by hand, while moving backwards steer opposite the direction I want to go. Once no longer in irons sail on main and raise the jib from cockpit!

Now have fun!

While alone I where and inflatable PFD at all times.
Practice on light days and watch for waves from passing boats!!

So now you can do it!! LOL!

I'm happy to show this to local sailors on your boat if youd like! :)

Scott

Reality
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Postby Reality » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:55 pm

Tiller Tamer is absolutely a must. I ran halyards to cockpit this year and love it.

ChrisC
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Postby ChrisC » Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:17 pm

HI there. I had not checked the forum for a week and wasn't expecting any more discussion on this topic. Anyway, Thanks CaptainScott for your usual thorough and thoughtful answers.

I'm pleased to report that I am getting out on the boat 2-3 times a week, most weeks. Sometimes it's my wife and me, but usually my 15 year old step daughter comes along, too. They're both learning how to sail (well, my wife is relearning). I am getting familiar with the boat and am feeling more pleased with it every time I go out. I have been surprised how well it sails and can move along at a fairly good speed in about 10 knots of wind.

Some of my questions have been answered by just more experience with the boat and getting into the routines of sailing again (after about an 8 year gap).

For securing the jib I've settled on using bungie cords to keep the sail on deck. They run along the tow rail and I pull them across the deck and over the flaked jib and fasten to each other with a hook. It's fast, and an added bonus is that when dumping the jib, I can just fasten the cords over it quickly, no worries until back in port.

I've realized I need to get a tiller tamer, too. Still haven't shortened it, but it also seems to be less of a problem as I've gotten used to it.

I haven't used the genny yet as in the usual 8-12 kts we experience the boat heels quite a bit. I have yet to feel a point where it seems to firm up, so I'm feeling like it would be overpowered with the 110% foresail. I probably need more time sailing it to really know what will ultimately feel comfortable or not. As the jibs are hank on, I'd be faced with a sail change if I needed to reduce sail, and I simply haven't wanted to do that yet.

I am making a list of improvement for the off season. It's funny, the halyards and the jib sheets seem a little short. No doubt the previous own was trying to save a few bucks. I think I will replace after this season. And having a jib halyard long enough to actually clip on to the bow pulpit would make sail changes easier and faster, especially in choppy conditions.

I may try adjusting the keel a bit--maybe it will help with heeling.

I think I'll rename it, too. No worries, I'll use the proper ritual and pour libations to Neptune.

Anyway, it's all been pleasurable.

Thanks for the help everyone.
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." --Wind in the Willows


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