Lowering mast on a c-22 for first time. Need advice!!

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ChrisC
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Lowering mast on a c-22 for first time. Need advice!!

Post by ChrisC »

Hi All. It's been awhile since my last post, and unfortunately, I have not been able to sail my C-22 since I took possession on Labor Day weekend, though I've been on it a few times. No wind, or very poor conditions, thick smoke from from nearby forest fires, rain, work, etc.

And now it's time to get the boat off of Lake Tahoe. Winter comes early.

Here are my concerns. I bought the boat while it was moored on the lake; I haven't raised or lowered the mast before. I'm new to the putting the boat in and taking it out process. I don't have a pin for the gin pole, and I don't have bridles. Here are my questions:

1. The pin seems to be 5/8 " by how long? I've seen 3" and 6". Which works best?

2. Is it possible for two people (wife and I) to lower mast without using the bridles, by guiding it as it descends?

3. Has anybody ever tried to lower the mast without using a gin pole but instead attaching the forestay to a set of blocks at the bow? I have a friend who does this with a Santana 23, but it's a lighter boat.

4. How likely is it the mast will fall off the back of the boat once it's down? That's sounds pretty lame, but a concern. I'm also missing a support at the stern for the mast, though I have a way to secure it to lifeline support post at the stern and the pulpit at the bow.

The boat will also be taken out by forklift and placed on my trailer, which at this point is the closest and easiest option. Any problem you can see with that?

Thanks much for any advice and insight.

Chris
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." --Wind in the Willows
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CaptainScott
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Post by CaptainScott »

HI Chris,
Welcome!

Answers:
1) 3 inch is fine! It is what I used. You can get a hardened 6" Bolt that is only partially threaded I believe you are correct on the 5/8". Use a cutting wheel or hacksaw to cut the threads off and the head off at the correct points to leave you a nice 3" pin! Cheap and easy!

2) Yes and I'll describe further down.

3) yes Kind of I'll explain further down. However you may not know if you have the factory boom, you have a gin pole!!

4) This is a tricky question. The majority of the weight is centered aft when the mast is down and the base is still at the hook on the deck. So balance is odd and yes, the mast COULD flip backwards off. However if you rest it on the sternpit and are careful the hook will hold it so you can grab the base and slide the mast forward on the deck.

ForkLift: Yes. Very doable. As long as the forklift is built for this activity. The forks must be long enough to get to the center of the hull and beyond, they must be padded to protect the hull, and the fork lift bust be capable of supporting the weight. The boat would sit parallel to the forks. Not perpendicular or you will not be able to put it on the trailer. Alan Hodge is very experienced with this and might chime in as he has recently posted.




Back to unstepping the mast.
Take a good look at the link in my signature. Look at everything in detail but IGNORE the bridles. Look at the block set up forward of the mast and the "gin pole" which is in reality simply the boom! Yes sir! your boot has a hole one end for the pin. Your bride can use block and tackle at the deck and slowly lower the mast while you stand on deck keeping it from swinging port and starboard. THAT is the key. Keep it from swinging. It must com straight back down and yes you can do it if you are in reasonable health. As the mast comes down, you move aft on the deck for better leverage. This is one way.



Her is another way of you can get 3 guys together. You can use the jib halyard and two long lines. Maybe . . . .jib sheets? Tie the two jib sheets or long lines to the jib halyard end that hooks to the head of the jib. Run the long lines straight forward off the bow. Have one guy take a line to port forward and one to starboard forward making about 45 degrees angle or in a "V" shape forward of the boat.

Now have the two guys gently pull putting tension on the halyard Which is tied to the base of the mast at the other end. You can now release the forstay and the guys can easily hold the mast up.

Next you get behind the mast on the coachtop. Have the guys slowly release tension on the mast. You will likely need to gently pull the mast aft to get it to start falling backwards. Now YOU must catch and guide the mast straight back AND you must guide the two guys forward to SLOWLY move together in unison towards the boat allowing the mast to slowly come down. YOU MUST guide them to EVENLY lower the mast or it can easily get pulled left or right. However you can guide your helpers easily because you have the best view as to if it is straight back or swinging! As the mast comes down it gets harder for the helpers so you must take the weight of the mast. Moving backwards on the deck as it comes down gives you better and better leverage.

What I'd recommend is go to a local heavily used ramp and watch other sailors and see what they do!

I can drop the mast on my C22 in minutes with me and two guys. It takes about 40 minutes to drop it alone because I am slow and methodic.

I'm happy to chat with you in person if you'd like, just give me a call! My number is in the links pointing to CaptainScottSailing.com


Hope this helps!
Scott











As far as lowering your mast there are several options. You can see the link in my signature for the Gin Pole and bridle method so I'll leave this one out.
Last edited by CaptainScott on Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by EmergencyExit »

And if you do need the bridles you can gather up 6 inexpensive carabliner clips and some lightweight chain and make bridles that are very easy to adjust till they are right..

Just clip one end to the correct spot on the toe rail, then hold chain and see where on the chain you are right even with mast step, and add a clip there, then clip other end to other spot on toe rail.

Since it is chain and clips you can fiddle with it till it is right..
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Post by ChrisC »

Both of you, thank you very much for the info. This is helpful. I think I'll put my wife on the block and I'll guide the mast. I'll let you know if I have more questions.
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Post by Bhacurly »

Definitely recommend using the gin pole an bridles!

Cheap insurance really. It's a stout heavy mast. My wife and I easily use this system an take our time. Lil things can happen with crappy outcomes. If the mast swings you can break the hook an base plate. If the shrouds bind up you bend your turnbuckles. I had the main halyard wire break 2 feet from being down and the mast dropped the rest the way.

Follow Capt Scott's links. I have a mast raising video on YouTube using this system, search bhacurly an it is my uploads. I drop an raise the mast once a year. Once it's down I sigh with relief 😆
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Post by CaptainScott »

Oh yes,

one very import item I failed to mention . . . .

BLOCK THE TRAILER

. . . so it can not flip back on you.

Either the trailer is hooked properly to the tow rig or you can put blocks under each side of the very back of the trailer!!!

( I agree with the bridles. Can be done without but MUCH safer with )

Good luck!
Scott
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Post by okchance »

I use a 1000 lb boat trailer winch attached to the front cleat. Lift the mast from the back as high as you can while your wife winds the winch in. The faster the better, within reason. Make sure the boat does not have a strong crosswind. Don't put too much pressure on the winch until you have the mast raised a bit, stresses the front cleat too much.
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Post by astrorad »

Two automobile jack stands under the rear sides of trailer will keep trailer from flipping up.
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Post by okchance »

My question is, how do you use the boom for the gin pole?
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Post by CaptainScott »

Read this post here:

http://www.captainscottsailing.com/php/ ... heMast.php
The pictures can be clicked for a full size version with great detail!


I'd be happy to answer any further questions if you have any after that post!

Enjoy!

Scott
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Dropping C22 mast

Post by windnutlarry »

I used EE's method of chain and carabiner clips. For the gin pole pin I went through the toolbox until I found a deepwell socket that fit. Worked like a charm!
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Post by okchance »

I don't have a mast pin, but looks like will work anyway. Just kind of scary using my boom for that.
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Post by OutnBacker »

Using the boom is the way to go, unless you have access to one like Capt Scott's dedicated ginpole that he made. The factory boom is plenty adequate in the alternative. I highly recommend bridles. At first they may seem unwieldy, but they make short work of this mast raising business (although I eventually sold my 22 and got a Chrysler 20 - no fuss mast raising).

Capt. Scott happened upon me struggling to raise the 22 mast one day at the ramp lot, and asked if he could be of assistance. I politely refused, saying that I was merely out of practise, as it was the first launch that season. He eventually went away with a chuckle. But yes, using the instructive method on his website can get you in the water in about 35 minutes after becoming familiar with the process.

With no ginpole, I would say that the two-man method with the V lines is safest. You don't want the mast to begin swinging to the side. Although it is only about 75lbs, the leverage forces can seem like more and correcting the swinging can be somewhat frightening. My C-22, which I no longer own, showed signs of the mast having swung to the side to the point that the hook on the step was bent to the side.

As the mast lowers to about 30degrees, the forces (weight) multiply because of reduction of mechanical advantage. In other words, as the mast becomes more and more horizontal, the belaying lines held by the two guys become more and more horizontal as well, closing the angle between the lines and the mast. This is where you need to be able walk the mast back towards the stern as it lowers. You will be taking the weight as the linemen become less functional. With no ginpole/boom, it can feel very clumsy and heavy because the balance will be aft of the stern rail. unless you are fairly staout, I recommend a helper in the cockpit to take some of the weight. A first timer might find it stressful, but a helper will make all the difference.

Plan your steps and don't step on any lines lying about the area. Once the mast is down, you can keep it from tipping over the stern by just going hand over hand to the step and throwing a line over the foot, tied to the tow rails on each side. Then, relax.
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Post by EmergencyExit »

One other thing I can add is there is a point at which you may need to stop raising and that is when the boom is nearing the deck. This may only happen on the C26 since the foredeck is longer than the C22 tho.

This happened when the redhead was pulling the raising sheet while I pushed up on the mast; she just kept hauling that sheet in and the pin came out of the mast.

At some point you are no longer pulling DOWN on the boom (and the pin), but begin to pull the boom (and the pin) FORWARD. Which "could" result in pulling the pin out of the mast since there is no longer any downward pressure on the pin..

In our case the mast was up and I was steadying it, but I sweated a bit until she got that forestay attached ! :shock:

Again this may only be on the C26, but if I had done that while single handing the raising it may have resulted in the mast coming down..

Sooo keep an eye on that as well...
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Post by Anhinga »

So, how heavy is the mast on a C22? My sailing buddy John and I have stepped / unstepped masts on a Catalina 22, O'day 22 and a McGregor 22, all similar vintage boats, with just human power. 3 people, no mechanical gear should be more than enough to unstep a mast, no? On a C-26 you need the gin pole rig but a 22? If we're nervous, one of us will belay with a line attached to the forestay but that's usually about it and then only once in a blue moon. The real trick is the step off the cabin top to the cockpit. There the third person would be a help.

Later!

-JK
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Post by EmergencyExit »

from what i've read, the mast section on the C22 is same or about the as the 26.. four or so feet shorter, but not too much lighter I'd guess.

I could almost walk the mast on the Cal 21 up by hand, and we barely need a gin pole for my friend's Mac 26, but those masts are a lot lighter than our C26 sections !
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Post by OutnBacker »

EE,
The mast on the 22 is cut from the same blank as the 26 and is the stoutest stick I have ever seen on any 22r.

EE,
When using a ginpole or the boom as such, there is a stopping point when the main tackle reaches its shortest length. That's why we insert the ginpole into the upright mast at an angle slightly upwards, say about 10 degrees. When I got mine upright to that point, I would go fwd, while holding the ginpole down til I got to where I could loose the main tackle and attach the forestay.

Anhinga,
The 22 mast weighs approx 75lbs, but all masts feel heavier because they are unwieldy and awkward to handle. The mast blanks on a Cat 22 and a MacGregor22 are lighter than the C-22. I have read that the O'day had two options for mast and rigging, with a lightweight mast being very popular. I doubt that it was as stout as the Chrysler-22. Few boats are. The mast on my Chrysler 20 is also quite sturdy and I can't raise it by simply pulling a halyard thru a single pulley at the bow. I have to attach the main tackle. The nice thing is that I don't need bridles due to the extra shrouds on the C-20. It is a stiff little ship.
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Post by EmergencyExit »

OutnBacker wrote:EE,
When I got mine upright to that point, I would go fwd, while holding the ginpole down til I got to where I could loose the main tackle and attach the forestay.
..see there's my problem; I should've had you on the tackle and not the redhead ! She didn't stop hauling away ! 8)
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Post by OutnBacker »

EmergencyExit wrote:
OutnBacker wrote:EE,
When I got mine upright to that point, I would go fwd, while holding the ginpole down til I got to where I could loose the main tackle and attach the forestay.
..see there's my problem; I should've had you on the tackle and not the redhead ! She didn't stop hauling away ! 8)
Either way, that mast will not be completely vertical until someone goes fwd, removes the tackle, and pushes the boom/ginpole down until the last 10 degrees has closed. That's the other thing I like about the C-20: no need for a ginpole or bridles, but I have to still use the main tackle when I'm alone.
Current: '75 Montgomery 17 #65
Current: '78 Chrysler 20
Past: '78 Chrysler 22
'98 Bauer 12 - gaff rig
'78 Orion Malibu 18
Forever: '83 Grumman 17, gunter rigged with jib and trimaran outriggers.
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Post by ChrisC »

Hi there. Sorry I haven't been around to discuss after posting the question--too busy. Well tomorrow, the 29th, is the day the mast comes down. We'll be on a tight schedule to make our appointment for the take out. We're using the gin pole method. I will get chain and carabiners, though I'm hoping we won't need them. One unexpected turn of events is that the marina wants us to take the mast down at the dock, as they find a boat with mast up is too unstable on the forklift. If there's too much rocking, we'll deploy the chain bridles. Otherwise I think I'll be able to guide it down. There might be an extra person to help.

I'll let you know how it goes. And then will come the repair and maintenance questions for the of season.

Thanks for all the input.
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Post by OutnBacker »

1) At least attach something to keep the ginpole upright as the mast starts to go back.

2) pre-select an escape route.
Current: '75 Montgomery 17 #65
Current: '78 Chrysler 20
Past: '78 Chrysler 22
'98 Bauer 12 - gaff rig
'78 Orion Malibu 18
Forever: '83 Grumman 17, gunter rigged with jib and trimaran outriggers.
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Post by CaptainScott »

To bad you are so far away! We could help out!

I just unstopped the mast on Lady Jo on Saturday just before our storm started to hit!

Scott
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Post by OutnBacker »

...hmmmm... the longer we don't hear from him, the worry-der I get. Not crazy about a first timer lowering the mast on a boat in the water...
Current: '75 Montgomery 17 #65
Current: '78 Chrysler 20
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'98 Bauer 12 - gaff rig
'78 Orion Malibu 18
Forever: '83 Grumman 17, gunter rigged with jib and trimaran outriggers.
ChrisC
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Post by ChrisC »

The mast came down!! And I mean that in a good way. It was a long day with a lot of obstacles associated with the boat and with other things. But I got the boat across the lake and into the marina, and started on the process of getting the mast down. It must have taken about 90 minutes. The actual lowering of the mast was pretty smoothly. We didn't use bridles. I guided it while my wife was on the block and tackle. I had to put some muscle into it a few times, and as it got lower the problem wasn't lateral movement but rotational, the boom acting as a lever to twist the mast. I suppose that because the boat was on the water small shifts in the balance of the boat had an disproportionately large effect on the mast. When I pulled the mast off the hook on the step, the end dipped into the water, but I'm assuming no damage to the anchor light and halyards--they'd already been through rain and snow. I'll check it soon. No damage to the hook, either. The real time consumer was simply getting ready for the lowering: sticky screws and bolts, attaching lines, loosening the back stay, etc. But now that I've done this once, I feel about 1000% smarter about the whole thing.

Thanks everybody for advice, support, and encouragement. Sorry I didn't report in sooner, work has kept me busy.

Now it's onward to the maintenance cycle. You'll be hearing from me soon.
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Post by OutnBacker »

Good. No concussions, no bent aft rails. That rotational thing is cancelled by the bridles that hold the boom to center as the whole assembly tilts and the boom comes upright. It might good idea to not get used to doing this alot without them. The extra movement may be a wear factor at the step. Bridles make it a one man job.
Current: '75 Montgomery 17 #65
Current: '78 Chrysler 20
Past: '78 Chrysler 22
'98 Bauer 12 - gaff rig
'78 Orion Malibu 18
Forever: '83 Grumman 17, gunter rigged with jib and trimaran outriggers.
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